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Hello and thanks for joining us today . 

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I know this is not our regular our uh 

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and for some some of you out there on 

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the west Coast and certainly in Hawaii 

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it's especially early but we're 

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fighting the tyranny of distance and 

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really time zones here . Uh So for a 

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very special event uh so we can bring 

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in some true experts in the field on 

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cyber in on cyber in china from china . 

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But first they'll be welcome everyone 

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for those of you joining us . For the 

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first time . I am Dr Brendan Mulvaney , 

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the director of the china Aerospace 

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Studies Institute . This is the next in 

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our quarterly webinars supporting A . 

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Cc . And trying to help the department 

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of the Air Force and the D . O . D 

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better understand china . Today's event 

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will focus on the cyber dimension 

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related to china and we've assembled a 

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truly expert panel with some really 

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deep experience . So this should be 

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terrific . So on behalf of CAssie and 

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our A . C . C . Partners , I'd like to 

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welcome you all . Um and and good 

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morning . So first the standard 

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disclaimer for everyone including me 

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that this is um that is speaking today 

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that we're all speaking uh in our own 

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personal capacity and not necessarily 

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representing the views of the U . S . 

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Government , their employers or anyone 

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else for that matter . So we are 

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recording this session for those who 

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are unable to make it and will be made 

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available on the castle website uh and 

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on David's in the future . So with that 

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let me introduce our panel leading off 

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today will be Naomi Wilson . She is 

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currently the vice president of policy 

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for Asia at the Information Technology 

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Industry Council . Uh This is the 

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premier global advocate for technology 

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and they promote public policies and 

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industry standards that advance 

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competition and innovation worldwide uh 

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In addition demand and she also speaks 

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french so hats off to her . I find one 

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language plenty enough for my 

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repertoire . Uh Next joining us . Uh 

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we'll we'll have my longtime friend . 

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Uh Professor E . Dr is the associate 

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professor for the department of the 

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International politics at the School of 

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International Relations . He is the 

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standing director for the lab on 

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national cybersecurity strategy and 

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technology . He is the deputy director 

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for the center of bricks . That's the 

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brazil Russia India china . South 

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America studies . So bricks studies all 

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of that at Fudan University which is 

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where we were classmates uh a decade 

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and a half ago . It doesn't seem like 

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it was that long but it has been um and 

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it's already twenty one hundred nine 

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o'clock PM in Shanghai . Hence the 

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early start for us here . Uh So we 

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really appreciate him staying up late 

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and taking some of his personal time to 

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join us today . And then we have 

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Jonathan Hillman . He is the senior 

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fellow for the C . S . I . S . 

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Economics pro program and the director 

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of the Reconnecting Asia project which 

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is one of the most extensive open 

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source databases on the belt and road 

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initiative for china . He has a new 

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book out , it's called the digital Silk 

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road china's quest to wire the world 

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and win the future by harpercollins , 

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which is available for purchase . Uh 

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And so with that , what I'd like to do 

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is turn it over to Naomi Wilson and we 

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will kick it off . All right over to 

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you . Great , thank you very much 

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Brendan . Um It's great to be with you 

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all this morning and evening , 

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respectively , wherever you happen to 

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be in the world . Um So I'm Naomi 

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Wilson , as Brendan mentioned , I 

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currently work for a Technology Trade 

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Association I . T . I , which is based 

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in Washington , D . C . Um and I 

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previously was at the Department of 

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Homeland Security , working on um 

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china cyber issues in addition to all 

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things Asia covering the array of 

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issues that the department covers . So , 

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what I thought I would do this morning 

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is speak a little bit from my 

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perspective um At DSS in particular 

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around the time of the 2015 

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uh us China cyber accord between 

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President Obama and Xi , which I worked 

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on . Uh and you know , then kind of my 

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my perspective now from from the 

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private sector . Um because I 

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think certain things have changed uh 

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and their their persistent narratives 

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within the china's fear that are 

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sometimes difficult to um either 

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debunk or to modify with the 

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appropriate nuance um that the 

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time makes necessary . So 

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I will start by saying um you know , 

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the the methods and tactics have 

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changed with china over the past 

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even several years . Um And it's it's 

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long been an evolution um both 

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bureaucratically um as well as from a 

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private sector perspective and 

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um I think it's important to keep in 

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mind that you know while the chinese 

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government is um extremely 

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um top down it is still not a 

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monolith . Um And it still does 

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take a certain degree of knocking 

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heads to get the interagency um in 

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china to play well together . And in 

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particular the cyber policy side 

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and the um the the 

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security side . Um And in this case 

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that the Ministry of Public Security um 

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as well as the intelligence components . 

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So um going back to 2 

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2015 just as a sort of scene 

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setter . Um This was at a time when 

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uh the U . S . Was really kind of fed 

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up with china's behavior . Um The U . S . 

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Government had made clear on several 

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occasions . Uh and the core issue here 

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was really I . P . Theft um for 

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economic gain through cyber means . Uh 

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And that's a very important phrase 

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because it's what we ultimately um 

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were able to get the chinese government 

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to agree that no government that 

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neither government would support um nor 

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endorse or turn a blind eye to . 

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So that was the first time that the 

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chinese really had made the distinction 

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even between economic 

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espionage and traditional espionage . 

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Um And of course now we find ourselves 

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in a different situation with the most 

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recent national security strategy um 

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effectively linking those two on the US 

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side . Um But even though 

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that the U . S . Policy has changed 

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um what we found was that that China 

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did um meet the letter of 

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um the the commitment that they had 

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signed up for . Um And I think you know 

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it's important to put this in context 

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of there are a few reasons that we got 

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to this um agreement that you know we 

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had pushed so long for china to um 

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really acknowledged that economic 

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espionage through cyber means was out 

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of bounds . Um And for the longest time 

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they had pushed back and said you know 

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just do a better job of protecting your 

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systems and everything will be fine . 

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Um So we 

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had the context of a state visit 

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between President Xi and President 

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Obama at the time . Which was really 

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important for President Xi at the time . 

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Um It was important for him to be able 

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to showcase on an international stage 

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that basically China and the US were on 

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a level playing field on even footing . 

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Um And they the chinese 

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government and the staff below 

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President Xi in particular wanted 

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nothing to go wrong with this state 

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visit . And so when the US 

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government started to contemplate 

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taking action based on 

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china's persistent um use of 

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of cyber espionage for economic means . 

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The chinese got really rattled . And 

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they came to D . C . On 

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effectively Less than 48 hours notice . 

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Um and brokered the steel with us um um 

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uh the eve of that visit . So 

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this in part it was a political 

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imperative for them . But also I think 

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the timing was right for them . Um So 

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china changes slowly over time but 

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they don't do anything that's not in 

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their interest and that they're not 

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ready to do . Um And at this point in 

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time I think they had heard um 

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sufficiently from the international 

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community that this the the 

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persistent cyber theft was just not 

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working for them anymore . Um There was 

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a reputational cost associated with it 

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that made this the right time to make 

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that deal . Um And ultimately they went 

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on to make the same deal with other 

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governments . Um The other piece of 

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this is that china didn't really need 

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to steal anymore . You know it's a 

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mistake to say that china just steals 

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everything . Um They are now truly 

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competitive and innovative in their own 

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right . Uh And so the need had 

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um lessened and uh 

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that's where we get into you know this 

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narrative of um does china still 

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persistently steel I . P . Yes and no . 

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Um they they do sometimes but it's 

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through different means . Um And as I 

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mentioned they they followed the letter 

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of the the agreement following 

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the conclusion of that commitment . 

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And um that's one thing that when I was 

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at D . H . S . We consistently checked 

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with the private sector side because 

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they're the ones that have the 

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visibility into their own systems to 

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verify that indeed the intrusions were 

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going down . Um and we we knew that 

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there had been some internal 

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machinations to kind of bring , bring 

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order to um certain parts 

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of the Ministry of State Security and 

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uh in particular as well as the 

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Ministry of Public Security , so 

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all that means um that we succeeded 

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in having china followed the letter of 

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the agreement and the spirit of the 

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agreement . Um but china still 

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has certain other tactics um that they 

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use . Um and in terms of I 

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p what we see on the private sector is 

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the imposition of security review 

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regimes um and forced partnerships that 

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kind of allow an inside look into 

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primarily the business operations 

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of a foreign company or US company . 

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And that's important to distinguish 

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because I think when when people think 

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of security review regimes and um joint 

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partnerships , they automatically think 

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of this is another opportunity to just 

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steal technology . And what 

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the the shift in tactics has meant is 

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less stealing technology 

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more co opting and taking credit for 

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business practices . Um And so what I 

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mean by this is um you know , for 

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example , in the cloud sector , 

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american companies are are far and away 

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the leaders both in the technology but 

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also in the business model and 

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in china , the requirement is that um 

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only your chinese partner can obtain a 

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license to operate um in china 

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uh for you and they basically operate 

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under your brand name or under their 

277
00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:22,850
brand name running your operations . So 

278
00:13:22,850 --> 00:13:25,700
it's effectively both , like a master 

279
00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:29,470
class in how to run a successful 

280
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,520
international cloud services operation . 

281
00:13:32,530 --> 00:13:36,360
And also enables the chinese partner to 

282
00:13:36,370 --> 00:13:39,520
really take credit for all of the work 

283
00:13:39,810 --> 00:13:43,020
that the foreign company has done to 

284
00:13:43,020 --> 00:13:44,853
date to get themselves into that 

285
00:13:44,853 --> 00:13:48,060
position . Um So you know , it's 

286
00:13:48,060 --> 00:13:50,171
important to to make that distinction 

287
00:13:50,171 --> 00:13:53,750
and to understand exactly what um 

288
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,170
they are gaining um in that 

289
00:13:57,170 --> 00:13:59,500
relationship and then it's not a 

290
00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:03,120
completely , even besides that , it's 

291
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,660
not a completely lopsided relationship . 

292
00:14:05,670 --> 00:14:07,990
Um there's still learning going on on 

293
00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:11,800
both sides um and uh it 

294
00:14:11,810 --> 00:14:15,770
is joint partnerships um Joint ventures 

295
00:14:15,770 --> 00:14:18,660
in particular are important mechanisms 

296
00:14:18,660 --> 00:14:22,300
to access any foreign market um for 

297
00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:25,650
companies , the other area that I'd 

298
00:14:25,650 --> 00:14:28,380
like to point out as we look at the 

299
00:14:28,380 --> 00:14:32,080
threat landscape um is how to 

300
00:14:32,090 --> 00:14:35,160
how to distinguish between national 

301
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,390
true national security threats and what 

302
00:14:37,390 --> 00:14:40,340
I call long shadows . You know , if if 

303
00:14:40,340 --> 00:14:42,451
everything is a threat , then nothing 

304
00:14:42,451 --> 00:14:45,470
is . Um so at this point in time , 

305
00:14:45,470 --> 00:14:48,320
there there's a confluence of events 

306
00:14:48,330 --> 00:14:52,080
across both the technology sector 

307
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,780
and with covid um and certain 

308
00:14:55,780 --> 00:14:58,710
chinese actions um in the international 

309
00:14:58,710 --> 00:15:02,190
arena , including human rights um that 

310
00:15:02,190 --> 00:15:06,160
have really degraded not only the 

311
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,650
bilateral relationship , but also how 

312
00:15:09,650 --> 00:15:12,960
everyday americans perceive china 

313
00:15:13,340 --> 00:15:16,270
um and it's important not to let that 

314
00:15:16,270 --> 00:15:19,570
cloud the bigger picture . Um there 

315
00:15:19,570 --> 00:15:22,390
needs to be , in my opinion , a more 

316
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,460
strategic and focused um 

317
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,270
perspective on china and on risk 

318
00:15:28,270 --> 00:15:30,920
management in particular ? Uh you know , 

319
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,740
to to say that everything china is bad 

320
00:15:33,750 --> 00:15:36,710
or a threat is really not productive 

321
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,100
when the US government resources are 

322
00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:42,920
limited and they will always be limited . 

323
00:15:42,930 --> 00:15:46,740
Um China's not going away . Uh 

324
00:15:46,750 --> 00:15:49,880
It's a fact of life for both the 

325
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:51,658
international community and the 

326
00:15:51,658 --> 00:15:53,713
business community um and there is a 

327
00:15:53,713 --> 00:15:57,250
symbiotic relationship there . Uh So 

328
00:15:57,260 --> 00:15:59,330
there needs to be a recognition that 

329
00:15:59,330 --> 00:16:02,830
balance is important , that china is an 

330
00:16:02,830 --> 00:16:05,160
important economic driver globally , an 

331
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,271
important piece of the supply chain . 

332
00:16:07,980 --> 00:16:11,400
And there are an important competitor 

333
00:16:11,410 --> 00:16:15,270
from a positive perspective in that um 

334
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,790
they helped drive competition and 

335
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,300
innovation . Um and some of the areas 

336
00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:24,800
that I've seen this um the 

337
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,440
narrative of just china china equals 

338
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,850
bad equals US government needs to do 

339
00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:35,750
something include um one of the 

340
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,218
include international technical 

341
00:16:38,218 --> 00:16:41,720
standards , which has become kind of an 

342
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,190
unfortunate narrative , a lot of policy 

343
00:16:45,190 --> 00:16:48,320
pieces and we hear the same repetition 

344
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,320
of talking points from policymakers 

345
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,290
that china is taking over in 

346
00:16:52,290 --> 00:16:54,179
international standards , they're 

347
00:16:54,179 --> 00:16:56,234
setting the standards for the future 

348
00:16:56,234 --> 00:16:59,360
technology um but that's not an 

349
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,590
accurate representation of what's going 

350
00:17:01,590 --> 00:17:04,950
on . Um And it's really important that 

351
00:17:04,950 --> 00:17:08,280
these assertions without assessment 

352
00:17:08,290 --> 00:17:12,250
um aren't taken as fact . 

353
00:17:12,260 --> 00:17:15,110
Um and you know , because ultimately 

354
00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:17,350
that will only eat up up U . S . 

355
00:17:17,350 --> 00:17:20,800
Resources and the way I like to think 

356
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,110
of this is you need to ask yourself the 

357
00:17:24,110 --> 00:17:27,770
so what question um you know , china 

358
00:17:27,780 --> 00:17:30,090
is sending more participants in 

359
00:17:30,090 --> 00:17:32,460
international standards for example . 

360
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,390
So what what what threat does that 

361
00:17:36,390 --> 00:17:39,330
pose ? Um And there have been 

362
00:17:39,340 --> 00:17:42,040
instances , you know , for example , 

363
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,170
where um China 

364
00:17:45,140 --> 00:17:48,610
has um kind of 

365
00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:50,620
fumbled around in the international 

366
00:17:50,620 --> 00:17:52,760
system and they try to use you know , 

367
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,816
their own tactics which are a little 

368
00:17:54,816 --> 00:17:58,580
which are a lot more top down . Um and 

369
00:17:58,590 --> 00:18:00,700
it does come off as government 

370
00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:04,310
direction of the private sector . Um 

371
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,920
But even when those instances have been 

372
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,080
allowed to play out within 

373
00:18:10,090 --> 00:18:13,520
international Fora , um 

374
00:18:13,530 --> 00:18:16,440
ultimately the protocols in place and 

375
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,440
the participants have prevented any 

376
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,750
undue influence . So when , you know , 

377
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:24,580
I hear these comments that China is 

378
00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:28,370
trying to push their own proposal um on 

379
00:18:28,380 --> 00:18:31,600
X . Y . Z . The question again is so 

380
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,140
what what happened , ultimately it 

381
00:18:34,140 --> 00:18:37,480
failed on its merits , As it should , 

382
00:18:37,490 --> 00:18:40,100
the system worked uh and there's no 

383
00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:43,760
need to marshall any additional U . 

384
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,100
S . Resources on the government side um 

385
00:18:47,110 --> 00:18:50,150
to prevent that where China feels , you 

386
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:53,180
know , let them fail on their own . Um 

387
00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:55,480
The other point that I would make is 

388
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,370
the focus uh does really need to be on 

389
00:18:59,380 --> 00:19:02,950
running faster and not trying to 

390
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,480
simply trip up our competition . Um as 

391
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,591
I mentioned that that competition and 

392
00:19:08,591 --> 00:19:10,813
innovation does not exist in a vacuum . 

393
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,880
Um and we need to be comfortable with 

394
00:19:13,890 --> 00:19:15,740
China playing more of a role 

395
00:19:15,740 --> 00:19:18,010
internationally and joining 

396
00:19:18,010 --> 00:19:21,540
international agreements . Um and you 

397
00:19:21,540 --> 00:19:23,570
know , really take that as an 

398
00:19:23,570 --> 00:19:26,410
opportunity to enable other 

399
00:19:26,410 --> 00:19:29,690
countries in addition to the US to hold 

400
00:19:29,690 --> 00:19:32,080
them accountable and to hold them to 

401
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,120
those higher standards , but you know , 

402
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,040
to think that we can completely 

403
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,060
disaggregate um both in the form of 

404
00:19:40,060 --> 00:19:43,010
international government agreements um 

405
00:19:43,020 --> 00:19:45,190
as well as from a supply chain 

406
00:19:45,190 --> 00:19:48,630
perspective . Um I think it is very 

407
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,870
short sighted . Um A lot of 

408
00:19:51,870 --> 00:19:53,981
policymakers still ask the question , 

409
00:19:54,340 --> 00:19:56,660
you know , why can't companies just get 

410
00:19:56,660 --> 00:19:58,882
out of china ? It's just not worth it . 

411
00:19:58,882 --> 00:20:01,770
Um And the bottom line is that 

412
00:20:02,340 --> 00:20:04,320
companies cannot be competitive 

413
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,480
globally if they're not in china . Uh 

414
00:20:07,490 --> 00:20:09,157
And this is where the U . S . 

415
00:20:09,157 --> 00:20:12,330
Perspective can be a bit myopic because 

416
00:20:12,330 --> 00:20:14,552
the thought is well if we just force us 

417
00:20:14,552 --> 00:20:18,350
companies to come home or to leave then 

418
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:20,920
all will be well , but you have to 

419
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:22,976
remember it's a competitive market . 

420
00:20:23,340 --> 00:20:26,050
Other companies are not , you know , 

421
00:20:26,050 --> 00:20:29,800
beholden to their governments where 

422
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,080
us companies exit other international 

423
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,550
companies are waiting in the wings and 

424
00:20:35,550 --> 00:20:38,540
that effectively closes out U . S . 

425
00:20:38,540 --> 00:20:41,690
Companies from the supply chain um from 

426
00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:45,600
options to to compete not only in 

427
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,160
china , but also internationally . 

428
00:20:48,940 --> 00:20:51,790
A couple of of suggestions and 

429
00:20:51,790 --> 00:20:53,970
recommendations from my time in 

430
00:20:53,970 --> 00:20:56,590
government and um both working with the 

431
00:20:56,590 --> 00:20:58,701
private sector and government as well 

432
00:20:58,701 --> 00:21:02,170
as um working with um 

433
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,296
the government on the private sector 

434
00:21:05,296 --> 00:21:08,920
side , I think um there's still 

435
00:21:08,930 --> 00:21:11,780
uh there's still a lack of trust 

436
00:21:11,780 --> 00:21:13,947
between the U . S . Private sector and 

437
00:21:13,947 --> 00:21:17,530
the government . Um there there 

438
00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:20,080
needs to be more of an open discourse 

439
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,690
and less of the 

440
00:21:23,690 --> 00:21:27,110
fear of Reprisal um on the company's 

441
00:21:27,110 --> 00:21:29,110
side , and I think some of that did 

442
00:21:29,110 --> 00:21:31,332
come from the previous information from 

443
00:21:31,332 --> 00:21:35,130
the previous administration , um in the 

444
00:21:35,140 --> 00:21:37,251
sense that companies don't want to be 

445
00:21:37,251 --> 00:21:39,550
named and shamed for trying to do 

446
00:21:39,550 --> 00:21:43,420
business in china , um and 

447
00:21:43,620 --> 00:21:47,190
you're not going to get full access to 

448
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:50,900
information um and cooperation with US 

449
00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:54,570
companies , if they feel like they are 

450
00:21:54,570 --> 00:21:57,020
on the cusp , or have the potential to 

451
00:21:57,020 --> 00:22:00,510
be named and shamed . Um and that 

452
00:22:00,510 --> 00:22:02,800
private sector relationship is really 

453
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,820
important . Um as I saw when I was in 

454
00:22:05,820 --> 00:22:09,560
government , um it's it's still 

455
00:22:10,340 --> 00:22:14,110
uh a bit of an unknown even within 

456
00:22:14,110 --> 00:22:16,430
government itself , that the US 

457
00:22:16,430 --> 00:22:19,260
government is not typically on private 

458
00:22:19,260 --> 00:22:22,650
sector networks . Um and so the 

459
00:22:22,650 --> 00:22:25,750
reliance on the private sector , it is 

460
00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:29,120
imperative . Um I saw this from 

461
00:22:29,130 --> 00:22:32,980
the icy perspective where um 

462
00:22:32,990 --> 00:22:34,990
you know , it can be very difficult 

463
00:22:34,990 --> 00:22:37,440
even for um the best intelligence 

464
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,080
community to make determinations 

465
00:22:41,090 --> 00:22:44,360
about what china is or isn't doing 

466
00:22:44,740 --> 00:22:46,962
without the active participation of the 

467
00:22:46,962 --> 00:22:50,070
private sector . Um and so those 

468
00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:53,740
linkages really um would be beneficial , 

469
00:22:53,750 --> 00:22:56,730
I think , to improve in the long run , 

470
00:22:56,740 --> 00:22:58,890
not only in the form of information 

471
00:22:58,890 --> 00:23:00,820
sharing , but also , you know , 

472
00:23:00,820 --> 00:23:03,550
potentially rotations um between 

473
00:23:03,550 --> 00:23:06,290
government and the private sector um to 

474
00:23:06,290 --> 00:23:08,960
really get that that mix of 

475
00:23:09,340 --> 00:23:12,630
expertise and perspective on both 

476
00:23:12,630 --> 00:23:16,620
sides . So um in a nutshell , 

477
00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:19,770
I think , you know , the key takeaway 

478
00:23:19,770 --> 00:23:23,600
here is that um not all things 

479
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,160
china are bad even in the cyber realm . 

480
00:23:26,170 --> 00:23:29,920
Um and you know , we we need 

481
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,900
to look at china um and chinese 

482
00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:37,670
policy as continuum and 

483
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,500
something that does change over time . 

484
00:23:40,510 --> 00:23:43,110
It's not stagnant and we need to change 

485
00:23:43,110 --> 00:23:44,999
our narrative and we also need to 

486
00:23:44,999 --> 00:23:48,120
change our allocation of resources in 

487
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:51,640
order to meet the challenge 

488
00:23:51,650 --> 00:23:54,590
um and address national security 

489
00:23:54,590 --> 00:23:58,070
threats where they truly exist . Um but 

490
00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:59,681
in other areas that are more 

491
00:23:59,681 --> 00:24:02,014
aspirational for the chinese government , 

492
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,110
um we need to let them run out their 

493
00:24:06,110 --> 00:24:09,790
resources and preserve ours . So I will 

494
00:24:09,790 --> 00:24:12,200
stop there and thank you for having me 

495
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,040
this morning . Well , I 

496
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,262
think that was that was just terrific . 

497
00:24:18,262 --> 00:24:20,262
A great way to start us off . And I 

498
00:24:20,262 --> 00:24:22,262
like the fact that you do what we , 

499
00:24:22,262 --> 00:24:24,429
what we try to do here at CAssie is to 

500
00:24:24,429 --> 00:24:26,651
present things as they are . Right . So 

501
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,729
the good , there's good parts and 

502
00:24:28,729 --> 00:24:30,840
there's bad parts and we both need to 

503
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,840
understand all of that . So I think 

504
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,896
that was really great . Um thank you 

505
00:24:34,896 --> 00:24:34,880
for that and I appreciate you taking 

506
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,290
some time this morning . Um , I should 

507
00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:39,401
have mentioned at the start were also 

508
00:24:39,401 --> 00:24:41,234
on live streaming to Youtube and 

509
00:24:41,234 --> 00:24:43,512
facebook and we have people joining us . 

510
00:24:43,512 --> 00:24:45,734
They're so not only can you use the Q . 

511
00:24:45,734 --> 00:24:47,790
And a function as people are already 

512
00:24:47,790 --> 00:24:49,846
starting to do here on zoom . But if 

513
00:24:49,846 --> 00:24:51,679
you are joining us on Youtube or 

514
00:24:51,679 --> 00:24:53,846
facebook because you couldn't get into 

515
00:24:53,846 --> 00:24:56,068
the zoom , please go ahead and put your 

516
00:24:56,068 --> 00:24:56,050
comments in the questions . I'm sorry 

517
00:24:56,050 --> 00:24:58,161
the questions in the comments section 

518
00:24:58,161 --> 00:25:00,494
and we will get to those as we go along . 

519
00:25:01,090 --> 00:25:04,080
And so with that we will turn to 

520
00:25:04,090 --> 00:25:07,000
Professor Sun . He is logged on and 

521
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,780
ready to go . So Again , a longtime 

522
00:25:10,780 --> 00:25:12,780
friend . We first met each other in 

523
00:25:12,780 --> 00:25:15,290
2003 when my wife and I moved to 

524
00:25:15,290 --> 00:25:18,020
Shanghai and started studying at Fudan 

525
00:25:18,020 --> 00:25:21,940
University . So uh , on 

526
00:25:21,940 --> 00:25:25,700
behalf of CAssie and the A . C . C . 

527
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:27,756
Webinar , Professor Sun , if you are 

528
00:25:27,756 --> 00:25:31,220
ready to go , my woman 

529
00:25:34,150 --> 00:25:34,890
uh 

530
00:25:38,340 --> 00:25:41,360
mm hmm . Thank you Brandy . Uh 

531
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,240
you are my best friend . The United 

532
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,100
States has long time . No see it's my 

533
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:49,490
great pleasure . Also a little bit 

534
00:25:49,490 --> 00:25:51,860
surprising here to participate online 

535
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,180
uh discussions on cyber issues . I'd 

536
00:25:56,180 --> 00:25:59,350
like to make several points first 

537
00:25:59,940 --> 00:26:02,480
when talking about the US Sino us 

538
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,140
relationships . Just I noticed that the 

539
00:26:06,140 --> 00:26:08,480
question already raised . Say that 

540
00:26:08,490 --> 00:26:11,230
talking about what china's cyber can do 

541
00:26:11,230 --> 00:26:14,480
in the cyberspace , maybe that's the 

542
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,660
first point we need to be clear 

543
00:26:17,340 --> 00:26:21,340
what a nation state a state actor can 

544
00:26:21,350 --> 00:26:24,270
do cannot do in the cyberspace . 

545
00:26:25,340 --> 00:26:28,330
I remember when go back to year 

546
00:26:28,330 --> 00:26:32,270
2015 when we're talking about this OPM 

547
00:26:32,740 --> 00:26:36,730
attack issues uh Mr Clapper , the 

548
00:26:36,730 --> 00:26:39,520
Director office of National 

549
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,970
Intelligence Office Director Mr Klaver 

550
00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:45,170
uh make a testimony in that Congress 

551
00:26:45,170 --> 00:26:48,910
hearing said that the OPM attack is not 

552
00:26:48,910 --> 00:26:52,530
a cyber attack . It's a classic passive 

553
00:26:52,540 --> 00:26:55,170
information or intelligence collective 

554
00:26:55,180 --> 00:26:58,480
actions in the cyberspace . Just as we 

555
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,060
do , it's quite clear all nation States 

556
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,790
has yeah , necessary 

557
00:27:06,790 --> 00:27:09,280
requirement to gather intelligence and 

558
00:27:09,290 --> 00:27:12,750
information by all means . And in 

559
00:27:12,750 --> 00:27:15,160
digital age , it means that the state 

560
00:27:15,170 --> 00:27:18,440
actors need to collect Data's 

561
00:27:18,450 --> 00:27:20,600
information intelligence in the 

562
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,050
cyberspace via the two means . So the 

563
00:27:24,050 --> 00:27:26,520
question is not whether the nation 

564
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,890
state has the right to do so , but how 

565
00:27:29,890 --> 00:27:33,010
to make a kind of norms or code of 

566
00:27:33,010 --> 00:27:35,740
conduct to regulate such kind of 

567
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:39,000
actions so that these actions can be 

568
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,930
controlled under certain levels 

569
00:27:42,930 --> 00:27:46,580
so that it will not do damage to the 

570
00:27:46,590 --> 00:27:49,270
general relationships between these 

571
00:27:49,270 --> 00:27:52,770
state actors . While on the other side , 

572
00:27:52,770 --> 00:27:55,480
when you visit the cyber command , the 

573
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,480
website of the United States , it's 

574
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,980
quite clear that it's a slogan saying 

575
00:28:00,980 --> 00:28:03,620
the main task for cyber commands is to 

576
00:28:03,630 --> 00:28:06,630
expand the freedom of the United States 

577
00:28:06,630 --> 00:28:08,686
and its alliance in the cyberspace . 

578
00:28:08,686 --> 00:28:12,160
And they tried to narrow the same 

579
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,200
freedom for its advisories . It means 

580
00:28:15,210 --> 00:28:17,154
that we have the competition among 

581
00:28:17,154 --> 00:28:19,780
different state actors , especially 

582
00:28:19,780 --> 00:28:22,520
those two actors who believe they have 

583
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,930
some conflict of interest , they will 

584
00:28:24,930 --> 00:28:27,320
launch these competitions whether to 

585
00:28:27,330 --> 00:28:30,390
expand the one side freedoms and narrow 

586
00:28:30,390 --> 00:28:33,820
the other side space of 

587
00:28:33,830 --> 00:28:36,860
freedom of actions in the cyberspace . 

588
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,650
So we need to build a narrative and 

589
00:28:40,660 --> 00:28:43,990
environment and atomic sphere , that we 

590
00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:47,600
can talk these questions in based 

591
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,550
on common sense . The common sense is 

592
00:28:51,140 --> 00:28:53,251
the United States and china and other 

593
00:28:53,251 --> 00:28:55,790
great powers has their obligations and 

594
00:28:55,790 --> 00:28:57,980
requirements to get informations and 

595
00:28:57,980 --> 00:29:00,147
the intelligence from the cyberspace . 

596
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,190
And these state actors need to build 

597
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:06,720
the norms to regulate their behaviors 

598
00:29:06,730 --> 00:29:08,870
so that they can lead to a strategic 

599
00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:12,000
stability ease in the cyberspace . And 

600
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,222
the third , of course , not the least , 

601
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,290
maybe during these actions , if these 

602
00:29:17,290 --> 00:29:19,512
countries did not want to conflict with 

603
00:29:19,512 --> 00:29:21,512
each other , it should respect each 

604
00:29:21,512 --> 00:29:24,100
other's core interests . They were not 

605
00:29:24,110 --> 00:29:26,470
leading to do damages to the core 

606
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:29,560
interest of each other so that they can 

607
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,230
continue their actions just what they 

608
00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:34,630
did in the normal world , which means 

609
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,950
outside of cyberspace . And the second 

610
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,730
what's china's main interest and the 

611
00:29:40,730 --> 00:29:42,980
goals in the global cyberspace issues . 

612
00:29:42,990 --> 00:29:46,000
Especially talking about Sino us 

613
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,180
relationships also go back to the year 

614
00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:52,730
2015 at that time , when we still 

615
00:29:52,730 --> 00:29:55,870
have the possibilities to dialogue in a 

616
00:29:55,870 --> 00:29:58,680
normal way between our two sides . It's 

617
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,720
quite clear from china's side , at 

618
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,290
least our top leaders sending out a 

619
00:30:03,290 --> 00:30:07,060
very Uh between our two 

620
00:30:07,540 --> 00:30:10,890
great powers and should not become a 

621
00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:13,730
kind of source of conflict between our 

622
00:30:13,730 --> 00:30:16,810
two sides at that time , I 

623
00:30:16,810 --> 00:30:20,050
happened the opportunities to working 

624
00:30:20,060 --> 00:30:23,400
with the c a c to providing some policy 

625
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,010
analysis and it's quite clear from 

626
00:30:26,010 --> 00:30:28,490
china's side , we wish to dialogue with 

627
00:30:28,490 --> 00:30:31,150
United States to talking about whether 

628
00:30:31,150 --> 00:30:33,530
we have building a common consensus on 

629
00:30:33,540 --> 00:30:36,570
how to regulate our behaviors in the 

630
00:30:36,570 --> 00:30:39,800
cyberspace . But a little bit of regret 

631
00:30:39,810 --> 00:30:43,260
is from then on , it's quite clear the 

632
00:30:43,260 --> 00:30:46,550
United States has a kind of intention 

633
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,620
to set up a symmetric attic norms of 

634
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:54,410
behaviors in cyberspace which 

635
00:30:54,410 --> 00:30:58,310
will regulate china unilaterally , 

636
00:30:58,310 --> 00:31:01,070
which means the United States providing 

637
00:31:01,070 --> 00:31:04,430
china uh to say United the United 

638
00:31:04,430 --> 00:31:07,990
States pushed China's side to accept a 

639
00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:11,410
kind of concept . Any kind of 

640
00:31:11,590 --> 00:31:13,780
information collections in the 

641
00:31:13,780 --> 00:31:17,030
cyberspace will be definite as a kind 

642
00:31:17,030 --> 00:31:20,270
of national state sponsored 

643
00:31:20,940 --> 00:31:23,980
behavior of the espionage behavior 

644
00:31:23,980 --> 00:31:26,850
actions in the cyberspace which should 

645
00:31:26,850 --> 00:31:29,960
be eliminated should be forbidden . 

646
00:31:30,740 --> 00:31:33,670
Any such kind of actions should not be 

647
00:31:34,140 --> 00:31:37,800
consider as a normal action of national 

648
00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:40,200
intelligence actions , but a kind of 

649
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,660
cyber crime . And it should be stopped 

650
00:31:42,660 --> 00:31:46,590
from China's side . Yes , china 

651
00:31:46,590 --> 00:31:49,130
accepted these norms . It means the 

652
00:31:49,130 --> 00:31:52,890
China side will automatically give 

653
00:31:52,890 --> 00:31:56,310
up the right to pledge information and 

654
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,810
intelligence in the cyberspace . It's 

655
00:31:58,810 --> 00:32:00,699
quite clear we have some conflict 

656
00:32:00,699 --> 00:32:03,500
because from china's side where we 

657
00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:06,890
believe we already limit those so 

658
00:32:06,890 --> 00:32:09,270
called cyber crime and espionage is 

659
00:32:09,270 --> 00:32:11,500
from our side , the United States were 

660
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:15,450
providing us more evidence , especially 

661
00:32:15,450 --> 00:32:17,570
those intelligence collection of 

662
00:32:17,580 --> 00:32:20,750
evidence and believe and based on that 

663
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,130
evidence , the US believe China did not 

664
00:32:23,140 --> 00:32:26,160
keep its promise which will do damage 

665
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,190
to the US Sino US trust it will lead a 

666
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:31,920
lot of problems and the confusions and 

667
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,550
then finally of course when this new 

668
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,920
Government in 2017 , 

669
00:32:38,930 --> 00:32:41,920
keep the White House Office , all the 

670
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,160
communication channels has been stopped 

671
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,210
and shut down , especially on these 

672
00:32:46,210 --> 00:32:48,620
cyber related issues . A little bit of 

673
00:32:48,620 --> 00:32:51,370
regret for from china's side in the 

674
00:32:51,370 --> 00:32:53,810
past several years , we did not get 

675
00:32:53,820 --> 00:32:56,270
much enough progress on the cyber 

676
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,060
issues , but from china's side 

677
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,010
now , I think the central government 

678
00:33:03,020 --> 00:33:06,590
set three or four very clear points 

679
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,300
understanding of how to 

680
00:33:10,310 --> 00:33:13,180
say that set up our national goals on 

681
00:33:13,180 --> 00:33:16,380
the cyber related issues . The first is 

682
00:33:16,380 --> 00:33:18,602
so called the cyber sovereignty judge , 

683
00:33:18,740 --> 00:33:21,390
which means unilaterally , chinese 

684
00:33:21,390 --> 00:33:24,540
government should have a very complete 

685
00:33:24,550 --> 00:33:27,610
sovereignty rights to regulate all 

686
00:33:27,610 --> 00:33:30,510
those related issues inside china's 

687
00:33:30,510 --> 00:33:33,400
borders . While on the other side , it 

688
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,420
means in international or in the global 

689
00:33:36,420 --> 00:33:40,060
cyberspace governance . The china's 

690
00:33:40,230 --> 00:33:43,310
as a state actors should have the equal 

691
00:33:43,310 --> 00:33:46,560
rights with the other state actors to 

692
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,250
jointly participate this norm setting 

693
00:33:50,260 --> 00:33:54,160
of policy making procedures globally 

694
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,650
with when these issues are norms 

695
00:33:56,650 --> 00:33:59,720
related cyber cyber space issues . The 

696
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,620
first and the second , the chinese 

697
00:34:02,620 --> 00:34:04,842
government believes the digital economy 

698
00:34:04,842 --> 00:34:06,890
is very important and the 

699
00:34:06,890 --> 00:34:09,240
infrastructure is also very important 

700
00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:11,184
to push forward the development of 

701
00:34:11,184 --> 00:34:13,620
these digital economies . But 

702
00:34:13,630 --> 00:34:16,030
domestically , the chinese government 

703
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,780
will regulate the direction of the 

704
00:34:18,780 --> 00:34:21,340
development of digital economy , in 

705
00:34:21,340 --> 00:34:23,350
which we believe that these digital 

706
00:34:23,350 --> 00:34:27,210
economies should target towards the 

707
00:34:27,210 --> 00:34:30,520
modernization of industries rather than 

708
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,810
focusing too much on finance and 

709
00:34:32,810 --> 00:34:35,820
consumer side of these economies . And 

710
00:34:35,820 --> 00:34:38,080
also the chinese government will try to 

711
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,380
building a more free competition market 

712
00:34:41,390 --> 00:34:44,340
orders domestically , rather than allow 

713
00:34:44,340 --> 00:34:47,920
very few huge platforms , monopoly . 

714
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,490
The huge it'll economies which we are 

715
00:34:50,490 --> 00:34:53,240
leading to a greater gap between the 

716
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:56,860
rich and the Poles . And the third is 

717
00:34:57,740 --> 00:35:00,570
about the cross data Fellows cross 

718
00:35:00,570 --> 00:35:02,810
border data Fellows how to regulate 

719
00:35:02,820 --> 00:35:05,970
these things , regulated across data . 

720
00:35:05,980 --> 00:35:08,200
Cross border data Fellows is very 

721
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,770
important at the time , one of the most 

722
00:35:10,770 --> 00:35:13,790
important central parts of our national 

723
00:35:13,790 --> 00:35:16,470
security strategies . It's quite clear 

724
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:18,850
from china's side that we need to keep 

725
00:35:18,850 --> 00:35:21,470
a balance because on one hand , we 

726
00:35:21,470 --> 00:35:24,620
believe we understand that these free 

727
00:35:24,620 --> 00:35:26,830
cross border data Fellows is a 

728
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,780
necessary requirement for normal 

729
00:35:29,780 --> 00:35:32,620
business procedures in the e commerce 

730
00:35:32,620 --> 00:35:35,610
and in the age of digital times . On 

731
00:35:35,610 --> 00:35:38,060
the other hand , we also believe that 

732
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,470
the state actors need to regulate these 

733
00:35:41,470 --> 00:35:44,460
data properly so that we can set up a 

734
00:35:44,460 --> 00:35:48,170
kind of so called boldly 

735
00:35:48,180 --> 00:35:50,910
cross border data Fellows . It's not a 

736
00:35:50,910 --> 00:35:53,800
free fellows . It's not only allowed 

737
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,360
the data localizations , but we 

738
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,610
permit to legalize the data Fellows 

739
00:36:00,620 --> 00:36:03,320
when they're doing the business , they 

740
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,550
need to get a base such kind of 

741
00:36:05,550 --> 00:36:08,130
procedures which means before they , 

742
00:36:08,130 --> 00:36:10,019
during the business , before they 

743
00:36:10,019 --> 00:36:12,370
transfer the data's they need to go to 

744
00:36:12,370 --> 00:36:14,770
permissions from the central government 

745
00:36:14,780 --> 00:36:17,610
and then they can transfer those datas 

746
00:36:17,620 --> 00:36:21,000
obey that regulations and of course we 

747
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,250
need at the same time completion 

748
00:36:24,260 --> 00:36:28,200
and the pursuit . So during 

749
00:36:28,210 --> 00:36:32,010
those that's the little age always lost 

750
00:36:32,010 --> 00:36:34,870
the connection to come back and the 

751
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,936
chinese government wants to regulate 

752
00:36:36,936 --> 00:36:39,810
this uh data cross border data fellows , 

753
00:36:39,810 --> 00:36:42,850
it will try to make 

754
00:36:43,230 --> 00:36:47,060
more much more improvement of these 

755
00:36:47,060 --> 00:36:49,410
regulation systems and set up lots of 

756
00:36:49,410 --> 00:36:53,020
laws before the launch of these laws . 

757
00:36:53,020 --> 00:36:55,242
They tried to collect informations from 

758
00:36:55,242 --> 00:36:57,910
all sides so that the stores can keep 

759
00:36:57,910 --> 00:37:01,140
this balance as much as possible . Last 

760
00:37:01,140 --> 00:37:04,490
of course the least . Uh in the 

761
00:37:04,500 --> 00:37:07,110
more general ways talking about this 

762
00:37:07,110 --> 00:37:09,220
governance issues , the chinese 

763
00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:12,450
government making uh understanding 

764
00:37:13,830 --> 00:37:17,660
uh of the uh the first point 

765
00:37:18,030 --> 00:37:20,140
from the central government's 

766
00:37:20,140 --> 00:37:22,650
understanding that the cyberspace , 

767
00:37:22,660 --> 00:37:25,310
especially the social media based on 

768
00:37:25,310 --> 00:37:27,366
the cyberspace is very important for 

769
00:37:27,366 --> 00:37:29,366
the improvement of our government's 

770
00:37:29,366 --> 00:37:31,770
person capacities but the government 

771
00:37:31,770 --> 00:37:34,910
needs to improve its capacities to 

772
00:37:34,910 --> 00:37:36,980
regulate these social media's 

773
00:37:36,990 --> 00:37:39,790
especially improve its capacities to 

774
00:37:39,790 --> 00:37:41,901
regulate the so called disinformation 

775
00:37:41,901 --> 00:37:43,512
and misinformation and those 

776
00:37:43,512 --> 00:37:45,234
information maybe a little bit 

777
00:37:45,234 --> 00:37:47,179
unwelcomed by some people's inside 

778
00:37:47,179 --> 00:37:49,540
government properly . I need to better 

779
00:37:50,130 --> 00:37:52,840
good to kind of more balanced systems 

780
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,440
to regulate all these informations . 

781
00:37:55,450 --> 00:37:59,220
But in general ways , especially after 

782
00:37:59,230 --> 00:38:01,550
last year's fighting against the 

783
00:38:01,550 --> 00:38:05,010
pandemic in the national wide central 

784
00:38:05,010 --> 00:38:07,600
government got more supporters for 

785
00:38:07,610 --> 00:38:09,860
normal people , especially the young 

786
00:38:09,860 --> 00:38:11,660
generations . We we named the 

787
00:38:11,740 --> 00:38:14,620
generations and this generation peoples , 

788
00:38:14,620 --> 00:38:17,230
they have very strong capacities to use 

789
00:38:17,230 --> 00:38:19,760
the cyberspace to press their ideas , 

790
00:38:19,770 --> 00:38:22,460
understanding source attitude , all the 

791
00:38:22,460 --> 00:38:25,090
things inside travel inside the chinese 

792
00:38:25,090 --> 00:38:27,850
and outside the world and these people 

793
00:38:27,860 --> 00:38:30,120
are extremely active not only in 

794
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,360
china's social media space also in the 

795
00:38:33,370 --> 00:38:35,940
global social media space I think in 

796
00:38:35,940 --> 00:38:38,180
futures maybe these generations were 

797
00:38:38,180 --> 00:38:41,790
providing us more interesting and 

798
00:38:41,790 --> 00:38:44,310
bright futures or maybe providing some 

799
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,180
chemicals changes on this relationship 

800
00:38:48,190 --> 00:38:52,090
issues . And then the big three 

801
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,340
what on the future I think in this 

802
00:38:55,350 --> 00:38:57,790
island and traditions especially 

803
00:38:57,790 --> 00:39:01,370
talking about the well going the 

804
00:39:01,380 --> 00:39:04,750
cyber at the summit for democracies 

805
00:39:05,220 --> 00:39:07,510
uh inside china we feel a little bit 

806
00:39:07,510 --> 00:39:10,790
concerned whether this summit or in 

807
00:39:10,790 --> 00:39:13,050
future the biden administration's will 

808
00:39:13,050 --> 00:39:16,730
link build a and we were 

809
00:39:16,740 --> 00:39:19,470
concerned that maybe the democracy or 

810
00:39:19,470 --> 00:39:21,690
other those values things will be 

811
00:39:21,700 --> 00:39:23,830
attached to technical standards and 

812
00:39:23,830 --> 00:39:26,052
then leading to these governance issues 

813
00:39:26,052 --> 00:39:28,290
and discussion more complicated . It 

814
00:39:28,290 --> 00:39:30,500
may be finally leading to a mission 

815
00:39:30,500 --> 00:39:33,240
impossible to get general consensus for 

816
00:39:33,620 --> 00:39:36,350
talking about this norms of governance 

817
00:39:36,350 --> 00:39:38,628
issues in a general ways which will be . 

818
00:39:38,628 --> 00:39:40,683
I try to do it for both sides and we 

819
00:39:40,683 --> 00:39:44,120
should push forward the discussions in 

820
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,010
a more general ways and base which obey 

821
00:39:47,010 --> 00:39:49,380
the natural rules of the development of 

822
00:39:49,380 --> 00:39:51,547
I . C . T . Technologies which will do 

823
00:39:51,547 --> 00:39:54,370
benefit . Okay I think I finish here 

824
00:39:54,370 --> 00:39:56,670
and then usually have the question 

825
00:39:56,670 --> 00:39:58,892
answers . I will input my ideas . Thank 

826
00:39:58,892 --> 00:40:01,003
you very much . Terrific . Well thank 

827
00:40:01,003 --> 00:40:03,170
you for that . I I have a ton of notes 

828
00:40:03,170 --> 00:40:05,003
and questions that we'll get and 

829
00:40:05,003 --> 00:40:07,170
there's I'm sure there's gonna be more 

830
00:40:07,170 --> 00:40:09,337
in the Q . And a session . So that was 

831
00:40:09,337 --> 00:40:09,170
fantastic thank you for that and and 

832
00:40:09,170 --> 00:40:11,392
for fighting through all the technology 

833
00:40:11,392 --> 00:40:13,392
issues zoom . Obviously it's come a 

834
00:40:13,392 --> 00:40:16,440
long way especially for during covid 

835
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,190
times but we still still have some some 

836
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:21,630
things to work out so that we will next 

837
00:40:21,630 --> 00:40:24,790
turn to Jonathan Hillman . Um and he's 

838
00:40:24,790 --> 00:40:27,240
gonna pick it up and take it away . 

839
00:40:29,410 --> 00:40:31,410
Thanks Brendan . I'm gonna share my 

840
00:40:31,410 --> 00:40:34,830
screen here if I can do that . 

841
00:40:39,210 --> 00:40:42,110
Okay . Is that coming through ? Yes it 

842
00:40:42,110 --> 00:40:44,332
is indeed we can see . Okay thanks . So 

843
00:40:44,332 --> 00:40:47,340
what I'd like to do relatively briefly 

844
00:40:47,350 --> 00:40:49,461
here because I'm pretty interested to 

845
00:40:49,461 --> 00:40:51,750
hear people's comments and questions . 

846
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,330
I'd like to give sort of a really kind 

847
00:40:55,330 --> 00:40:58,080
of crash course overview of some of the 

848
00:40:58,090 --> 00:41:00,460
topics I cover in this new book the 

849
00:41:00,460 --> 00:41:02,990
digital Silk Road and this is basically 

850
00:41:02,990 --> 00:41:05,300
a book about the digital or technology 

851
00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:07,244
dimension of china's belt and road 

852
00:41:07,244 --> 00:41:09,300
initiative which I've spent the last 

853
00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:12,160
five years studying at C . S . I . S . 

854
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,480
And we have a project called the 

855
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,702
Reconnecting ASIA Project with a lot of 

856
00:41:16,780 --> 00:41:19,550
resources explaining you know what the 

857
00:41:19,550 --> 00:41:21,717
belt and road is and isn't and looking 

858
00:41:21,717 --> 00:41:23,939
at it in different parts of the world . 

859
00:41:24,410 --> 00:41:26,632
So I'll just briefly talk about some of 

860
00:41:26,632 --> 00:41:28,854
the drivers and why I think this set of 

861
00:41:28,854 --> 00:41:31,021
digital infrastructure activities that 

862
00:41:31,021 --> 00:41:33,250
china is pursuing beyond its borders is 

863
00:41:33,250 --> 00:41:35,710
actually um . Intensifying and becoming 

864
00:41:35,710 --> 00:41:37,877
more consequential in the aftermath of 

865
00:41:37,877 --> 00:41:39,880
the pandemic and then I want to 

866
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,047
highlight a few areas that I think are 

867
00:41:42,047 --> 00:41:44,213
important . Um Cover more areas in the 

868
00:41:44,213 --> 00:41:46,324
book . I also talk a little bit about 

869
00:41:46,324 --> 00:41:48,491
wireless networks um and also a little 

870
00:41:48,491 --> 00:41:50,580
bit about safe cities . But just for 

871
00:41:50,590 --> 00:41:52,757
brevity today , I'm gonna try to touch 

872
00:41:52,757 --> 00:41:55,140
these three areas , subsea cables , 

873
00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:57,970
cloud services and then a subset of 

874
00:41:57,970 --> 00:42:01,890
satellites . So I I do think , 

875
00:42:01,890 --> 00:42:04,280
you know , someone who has spent a 

876
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,391
significant amount of time looking at 

877
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,544
China's belt and Road initiative , 

878
00:42:08,544 --> 00:42:10,489
which as many of you know , is she 

879
00:42:10,489 --> 00:42:12,711
Jinping signature foreign Policy vision 

880
00:42:12,711 --> 00:42:15,230
announced in 2013 . And you know , the 

881
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,656
the first phase of belt and road was 

882
00:42:17,656 --> 00:42:19,767
really primarily focused on transport 

883
00:42:19,767 --> 00:42:21,822
and energy projects . Those were the 

884
00:42:21,822 --> 00:42:24,060
two most active sectors . But I think 

885
00:42:24,070 --> 00:42:26,237
digital infrastructure in many ways is 

886
00:42:26,237 --> 00:42:28,181
better suited to the international 

887
00:42:28,181 --> 00:42:30,292
environment that we find ourselves in 

888
00:42:30,292 --> 00:42:32,514
today . And so I think there's a set of 

889
00:42:32,514 --> 00:42:34,570
factors that it's both pushing those 

890
00:42:34,570 --> 00:42:36,737
projects out of china and pulling them 

891
00:42:36,737 --> 00:42:39,330
into other countries . And so let me 

892
00:42:39,330 --> 00:42:41,720
just unpack those really quickly here . 

893
00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:44,044
Uh You know , one really practical 

894
00:42:44,044 --> 00:42:45,822
advantage of digital projects , 

895
00:42:45,822 --> 00:42:47,711
although it depends on what we're 

896
00:42:47,711 --> 00:42:49,711
talking about is that these digital 

897
00:42:49,711 --> 00:42:51,711
projects often cost less than large 

898
00:42:51,711 --> 00:42:53,989
transport and energy projects . And so , 

899
00:42:53,989 --> 00:42:56,100
you know , we're living in a world in 

900
00:42:56,100 --> 00:42:58,100
which many developing countries are 

901
00:42:58,100 --> 00:43:00,267
under det distress about 100 countries 

902
00:43:00,267 --> 00:43:02,267
last year , going to the I . M f to 

903
00:43:02,267 --> 00:43:04,211
talk about debt relief for most of 

904
00:43:04,211 --> 00:43:06,044
those countries . China is their 

905
00:43:06,044 --> 00:43:08,156
largest bilateral official creditor . 

906
00:43:08,156 --> 00:43:10,322
And so there's an appeal here of doing 

907
00:43:10,322 --> 00:43:12,378
projects with a lower price tag just 

908
00:43:12,378 --> 00:43:14,489
because a lot of developing countries 

909
00:43:14,489 --> 00:43:16,600
don't have the fiscal space to borrow 

910
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,489
and do those larger transport and 

911
00:43:18,489 --> 00:43:21,350
energy projects . Digital projects are 

912
00:43:21,350 --> 00:43:23,461
also typically faster to deliver when 

913
00:43:23,461 --> 00:43:25,572
you just look at the time it takes to 

914
00:43:25,572 --> 00:43:28,110
announce them and then complete them . 

915
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,230
And um you know , this is one example 

916
00:43:31,230 --> 00:43:33,397
in the picture here . We're looking at 

917
00:43:33,397 --> 00:43:35,563
workers who are laying the first fiber 

918
00:43:35,563 --> 00:43:37,570
optic cable , direct fiber optic 

919
00:43:37,570 --> 00:43:40,200
connection between china and Pakistan . 

920
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,990
And so this is on the Pakistani side of 

921
00:43:42,990 --> 00:43:45,610
the border there at high altitude here . 

922
00:43:45,620 --> 00:43:47,787
Um and it's you know , this looks like 

923
00:43:47,787 --> 00:43:50,009
basically a couple of workers , it sort 

924
00:43:50,009 --> 00:43:52,231
of looks like a road service crew and I 

925
00:43:52,231 --> 00:43:54,398
think that speaks to again some of the 

926
00:43:54,398 --> 00:43:56,398
practical advantages of doing these 

927
00:43:56,398 --> 00:43:58,287
digital projects , you don't need 

928
00:43:58,287 --> 00:44:00,509
hundreds of workers , you don't need to 

929
00:44:00,509 --> 00:44:03,540
relocate people . The immediate impacts 

930
00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:06,460
on the environment are often less 

931
00:44:06,460 --> 00:44:09,280
visible , less noticeable . Um So all 

932
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,391
of that I think is advantageous . And 

933
00:44:11,391 --> 00:44:13,490
then there's a set of sort of 

934
00:44:13,490 --> 00:44:15,657
geopolitical factors here that I think 

935
00:44:15,657 --> 00:44:17,601
are also important and are helping 

936
00:44:17,601 --> 00:44:20,140
drive some of this activity as chinese 

937
00:44:20,140 --> 00:44:22,307
tech companies encounter more scrutiny 

938
00:44:22,307 --> 00:44:24,418
in advanced economies like the United 

939
00:44:24,418 --> 00:44:26,362
States countries in Western europe 

940
00:44:26,362 --> 00:44:28,670
Australia , Japan in order to continue 

941
00:44:28,670 --> 00:44:31,070
to grow . They are doubling down in 

942
00:44:31,070 --> 00:44:33,840
markets where arguments about security 

943
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,320
risks might not be that might not be 

944
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,240
the decisive factor and and 

945
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:40,570
considerations about cost and upfront 

946
00:44:40,570 --> 00:44:43,210
affordability might be more important . 

947
00:44:43,220 --> 00:44:45,260
And so I think that's also helping 

948
00:44:45,260 --> 00:44:48,080
intensify this set of activities . And 

949
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:49,858
finally the pandemic is clearly 

950
00:44:49,858 --> 00:44:51,969
underscored that you don't want to be 

951
00:44:51,969 --> 00:44:53,858
on the losing side of the digital 

952
00:44:53,858 --> 00:44:56,024
divide . There's a vast unmet need for 

953
00:44:56,024 --> 00:44:58,270
digital infrastructure globally . Um 

954
00:44:58,270 --> 00:45:00,214
you know , literally about half of 

955
00:45:00,214 --> 00:45:02,490
humanity still lacks a reliable 

956
00:45:02,620 --> 00:45:05,840
internet connection and you know , so 

957
00:45:05,850 --> 00:45:08,280
not everyone clearly was able to move 

958
00:45:08,290 --> 00:45:11,800
work , school , healthcare , 

959
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,580
entertainment and so on online as many 

960
00:45:14,580 --> 00:45:16,191
of us were in more connected 

961
00:45:16,191 --> 00:45:18,191
communities . And so there's a real 

962
00:45:18,191 --> 00:45:21,740
demand here that's also um driving some 

963
00:45:21,740 --> 00:45:24,590
of this , the first area that I want to 

964
00:45:24,590 --> 00:45:28,360
highlight briefly um is one that I 

965
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,416
think is it's it's both commercially 

966
00:45:30,416 --> 00:45:31,971
important as all as well as 

967
00:45:31,971 --> 00:45:34,230
strategically important subsea cables . 

968
00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:36,296
As many of you know , carry the vast 

969
00:45:36,296 --> 00:45:38,540
majority of international data , You 

970
00:45:38,540 --> 00:45:40,780
know , rough estimate is about 95% of 

971
00:45:40,780 --> 00:45:42,980
international data carried by sub sea 

972
00:45:42,980 --> 00:45:45,770
cables . Um and this is an interesting 

973
00:45:45,770 --> 00:45:47,937
story here because this map that we're 

974
00:45:47,937 --> 00:45:50,290
looking at , which illustrates um 

975
00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:52,500
subsidy cables that chinese companies 

976
00:45:52,500 --> 00:45:55,610
have built or upgraded this map did not 

977
00:45:55,610 --> 00:45:57,740
exist a little over a decade ago . A 

978
00:45:57,750 --> 00:46:00,000
little over a decade ago , china was 

979
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,320
largely dependent on foreign companies 

980
00:46:02,330 --> 00:46:06,220
for this capability . And in order 

981
00:46:06,220 --> 00:46:08,442
to obtain this capability , it formed a 

982
00:46:08,442 --> 00:46:11,200
joint venture with a UK headquartered 

983
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,010
company , Huawei formed a joint venture 

984
00:46:14,010 --> 00:46:16,232
with a company called Global marine and 

985
00:46:16,232 --> 00:46:18,454
then the resulting joint venture Huawei 

986
00:46:18,454 --> 00:46:20,690
marine over the following decade , 

987
00:46:20,700 --> 00:46:23,290
built about 100 projects and it did so 

988
00:46:23,290 --> 00:46:25,640
and I think a pretty strategic 

989
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,630
methodical way in which it built 

990
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,650
progressively more um complex and 

991
00:46:30,650 --> 00:46:33,430
longer systems and acquired 

992
00:46:33,580 --> 00:46:37,570
experience know how um , and a track 

993
00:46:37,570 --> 00:46:39,626
record to demonstrate to prospective 

994
00:46:39,626 --> 00:46:41,459
customers that it could do these 

995
00:46:41,459 --> 00:46:43,660
systems . Um , and so that that joint 

996
00:46:43,660 --> 00:46:45,604
venture was purchased by Heng tong 

997
00:46:45,604 --> 00:46:48,620
group last year . And so it's now fully 

998
00:46:48,630 --> 00:46:51,550
chinese owned and so hang tong group is 

999
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,840
the world's fourth major provider of 

1000
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,896
these systems . So it's a relatively 

1001
00:46:56,896 --> 00:46:59,020
elite club of companies that that are 

1002
00:46:59,020 --> 00:47:01,242
general contractors for these systems . 

1003
00:47:01,242 --> 00:47:03,187
There's four of them , ones in the 

1004
00:47:03,187 --> 00:47:05,353
United States , one is in europe , one 

1005
00:47:05,353 --> 00:47:07,464
is in Japan and now one is in china . 

1006
00:47:07,464 --> 00:47:09,576
Um and it's interesting when you look 

1007
00:47:09,576 --> 00:47:11,576
at these projects , I think there's 

1008
00:47:11,576 --> 00:47:13,798
grounds to suggest that not all of them 

1009
00:47:13,798 --> 00:47:16,310
have solid economic fundamentals . Uh 

1010
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,810
for example , the cable that on this 

1011
00:47:18,810 --> 00:47:21,990
map that goes from Cameroon to Brazil 

1012
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,520
has relatively carries relatively 

1013
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,510
little traffic . Um but it was , you 

1014
00:47:27,510 --> 00:47:29,732
know , for Huawei marine . It was a big 

1015
00:47:29,732 --> 00:47:31,899
demonstration project . They were able 

1016
00:47:31,899 --> 00:47:34,066
to say that they built the first table 

1017
00:47:34,066 --> 00:47:36,760
um crossing the south atlantic first 

1018
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,816
fiber optic modern fiber optic cable 

1019
00:47:38,816 --> 00:47:42,300
crossing the south atlantic . Um and 

1020
00:47:42,310 --> 00:47:44,421
you know , unfortunately Cameroon has 

1021
00:47:44,430 --> 00:47:48,030
debt that it took on uh from from china 

1022
00:47:48,030 --> 00:47:50,141
Exim bank for this project , which is 

1023
00:47:50,141 --> 00:47:53,410
now relatively underutilized and 

1024
00:47:53,410 --> 00:47:55,521
there's some other projects just over 

1025
00:47:55,521 --> 00:47:57,743
the horizon that might come online that 

1026
00:47:57,743 --> 00:47:59,632
I think are interesting and worth 

1027
00:47:59,632 --> 00:48:01,688
tracking . One of them is called the 

1028
00:48:01,688 --> 00:48:04,760
peace Cable , which connects Pakistan 

1029
00:48:04,770 --> 00:48:08,220
uh and Djibouti and several points in 

1030
00:48:08,220 --> 00:48:11,140
East Africa and then goes up uh and 

1031
00:48:11,140 --> 00:48:13,410
lands in France . And so that's a 

1032
00:48:13,420 --> 00:48:16,470
massive project that that is pretty 

1033
00:48:16,470 --> 00:48:20,450
close to completion . The second area 

1034
00:48:20,450 --> 00:48:22,561
that I want to highlight briefly here 

1035
00:48:22,561 --> 00:48:24,728
is one that I think hasn't received as 

1036
00:48:24,728 --> 00:48:27,520
much attention yet um but probably will 

1037
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,464
get a little more attention in the 

1038
00:48:29,464 --> 00:48:31,187
coming years . And this is the 

1039
00:48:31,187 --> 00:48:33,298
provision of cloud infrastructure and 

1040
00:48:33,298 --> 00:48:35,298
cloud services . In this case we're 

1041
00:48:35,298 --> 00:48:37,960
talking about e government services . 

1042
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,380
So this is a map that shows deals that 

1043
00:48:40,390 --> 00:48:43,580
Huawei has struck between foreign 

1044
00:48:43,580 --> 00:48:45,913
governments and state owned enterprises . 

1045
00:48:45,913 --> 00:48:47,913
And I think what's striking here is 

1046
00:48:47,913 --> 00:48:50,024
that all of this , all of these deals 

1047
00:48:50,024 --> 00:48:52,190
or most of them were happening at a 

1048
00:48:52,190 --> 00:48:55,070
time when Huawei was encountering more 

1049
00:48:55,070 --> 00:48:58,980
scrutiny around five G um and getting 

1050
00:48:58,990 --> 00:49:01,600
in some cases getting squeezed out of 

1051
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,600
more advanced economies . And so to 

1052
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,600
compensate for that , it's pivoting 

1053
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,030
into providing um uh services that are , 

1054
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,390
you know , less dependent on advanced 

1055
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,840
semiconductors . Um and it's selling in 

1056
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,300
places where that security argument 

1057
00:49:17,310 --> 00:49:20,530
might not be as determinative . Um And 

1058
00:49:20,530 --> 00:49:22,752
so , I mean literally these are foreign 

1059
00:49:22,752 --> 00:49:25,070
governments that are , you know , going 

1060
00:49:25,070 --> 00:49:28,290
with Huawei to store their data and for 

1061
00:49:28,470 --> 00:49:30,637
a whole range of services , everything 

1062
00:49:30,637 --> 00:49:33,650
from electronic tax and health records 

1063
00:49:33,650 --> 00:49:36,420
to in in at least one case electronic 

1064
00:49:36,420 --> 00:49:38,531
voting . Um So these are really , you 

1065
00:49:38,531 --> 00:49:40,587
know , these are some sensitive data 

1066
00:49:40,587 --> 00:49:42,809
sensitive functions um And I think it's 

1067
00:49:42,809 --> 00:49:45,031
a reminder here that um you know if the 

1068
00:49:45,031 --> 00:49:47,400
US wants to compete in these areas it 

1069
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,890
needs to be thinking about how it can 

1070
00:49:49,890 --> 00:49:52,720
offer more affordable alternatives . 

1071
00:49:53,570 --> 00:49:55,681
The other lesson to me that comes out 

1072
00:49:55,681 --> 00:49:58,660
of this map and this set of activities 

1073
00:49:58,670 --> 00:50:00,590
is that um you know the U . S . 

1074
00:50:00,590 --> 00:50:03,850
Actually has currently many of the 

1075
00:50:03,860 --> 00:50:06,730
pieces of a very compelling offering , 

1076
00:50:06,740 --> 00:50:08,960
you know just objectively according to 

1077
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,540
third party um uh studies . 

1078
00:50:12,540 --> 00:50:14,762
While he does not have the world's best 

1079
00:50:14,762 --> 00:50:16,984
cloud services , U . S . Companies have 

1080
00:50:16,984 --> 00:50:19,040
the world's best cloud services . So 

1081
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:20,818
it's you know , they're they're 

1082
00:50:20,818 --> 00:50:22,707
effectively packaging an inferior 

1083
00:50:22,707 --> 00:50:24,990
product here and having um for income 

1084
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,010
foreign governments purchases , 

1085
00:50:27,020 --> 00:50:29,242
purchase it . And I think they're doing 

1086
00:50:29,242 --> 00:50:30,964
that effectively because their 

1087
00:50:30,964 --> 00:50:33,187
packaging both the services which again 

1088
00:50:33,187 --> 00:50:35,353
are not the world's best services with 

1089
00:50:35,353 --> 00:50:36,798
infrastructure , the hard 

1090
00:50:36,798 --> 00:50:38,909
infrastructure and they're offering a 

1091
00:50:38,909 --> 00:50:40,964
whole range of hard infrastructure , 

1092
00:50:40,964 --> 00:50:43,187
everything from data centers , the size 

1093
00:50:43,187 --> 00:50:45,298
of a shipping container to you know , 

1094
00:50:45,298 --> 00:50:47,270
multilevel facilities um And then 

1095
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:49,492
they're bringing in state financing and 

1096
00:50:49,492 --> 00:50:51,437
so that that package becomes quite 

1097
00:50:51,437 --> 00:50:53,437
compelling . And so I think this is 

1098
00:50:53,437 --> 00:50:55,437
something that the U . S . Needs to 

1099
00:50:55,437 --> 00:50:57,214
think about because we have the 

1100
00:50:57,214 --> 00:50:59,326
elements of that package but we might 

1101
00:50:59,326 --> 00:51:01,660
not be pulling pulling them together in 

1102
00:51:01,660 --> 00:51:04,060
a compelling way and scaling them in a 

1103
00:51:04,060 --> 00:51:05,060
compelling way . 

1104
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,960
The last , the last area here that I 

1105
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,100
want to highlight um is one that I do 

1106
00:51:16,100 --> 00:51:18,211
expect will get more attention in the 

1107
00:51:18,211 --> 00:51:20,378
coming years . This is the competition 

1108
00:51:20,378 --> 00:51:22,710
to provide broadband from outer space 

1109
00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:24,887
in this case , through low earth orbit 

1110
00:51:24,887 --> 00:51:27,109
satellite constellations . I think this 

1111
00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:29,164
is a fascinating development because 

1112
00:51:29,164 --> 00:51:31,387
we've got several US companies that are 

1113
00:51:31,387 --> 00:51:34,180
um in the lead here . Um it's not a 

1114
00:51:34,180 --> 00:51:36,660
very big group but uh in the lead 

1115
00:51:36,660 --> 00:51:38,990
developing these constellations and you 

1116
00:51:38,990 --> 00:51:41,130
could imagine a situation in which 

1117
00:51:41,140 --> 00:51:44,370
these constellations help to provide 

1118
00:51:44,380 --> 00:51:47,900
broadband to rural and lower income 

1119
00:51:47,900 --> 00:51:50,090
markets . I think you probably need 

1120
00:51:50,090 --> 00:51:51,979
some kind of support in order for 

1121
00:51:51,979 --> 00:51:54,201
financial support in order to make that 

1122
00:51:54,201 --> 00:51:55,923
viable . But it's definitely a 

1123
00:51:55,923 --> 00:51:58,230
possibility china is developing its own 

1124
00:51:58,230 --> 00:52:00,560
alternative , not really quite as far 

1125
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,290
ahead . A few details known about that 

1126
00:52:03,290 --> 00:52:06,040
alternative . Um , but I think we can 

1127
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:07,984
expect that china will develop its 

1128
00:52:07,984 --> 00:52:10,151
alternative in the same way that , you 

1129
00:52:10,151 --> 00:52:12,900
know , it progressively um sought and 

1130
00:52:12,900 --> 00:52:15,880
acquired that capability to deliver 

1131
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,230
subsea cables . I think this is an area 

1132
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:21,070
where um , china will be making serious 

1133
00:52:21,070 --> 00:52:24,580
investments and developing economies 

1134
00:52:24,580 --> 00:52:26,802
will be up for grabs here . Who's going 

1135
00:52:26,802 --> 00:52:29,250
to get landing rights in the world's 

1136
00:52:29,260 --> 00:52:31,482
emerging markets . I think that's still 

1137
00:52:31,482 --> 00:52:35,100
to be determined And just underscoring 

1138
00:52:35,100 --> 00:52:37,660
here , um that you know that the there 

1139
00:52:37,660 --> 00:52:40,140
is really vast demand that that remains 

1140
00:52:40,150 --> 00:52:42,520
unmet . I think sometimes when we talk 

1141
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,370
about the 5G competition . Um , as a 

1142
00:52:45,370 --> 00:52:47,426
race we forget you know that most of 

1143
00:52:47,426 --> 00:52:49,720
the world is still or a lot of the 

1144
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:51,887
world is still looking for three G and 

1145
00:52:51,887 --> 00:52:54,900
four G . Um and so you know by one 

1146
00:52:54,900 --> 00:52:58,330
estimate only 15% of mobile users will 

1147
00:52:58,330 --> 00:53:02,280
have five G um by 2025 . And 

1148
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,370
so there's still this vast need for 

1149
00:53:04,370 --> 00:53:07,010
more connectivity , big opportunities 

1150
00:53:07,010 --> 00:53:10,300
here , if I think if the U . S . Can 

1151
00:53:10,300 --> 00:53:13,320
think how to , can think strategically 

1152
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,960
about how to leverage um and partner 

1153
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,580
with the private sector uh and these 

1154
00:53:19,580 --> 00:53:21,747
are big stakes to it involved not only 

1155
00:53:21,747 --> 00:53:23,858
commercially , but you know these are 

1156
00:53:23,858 --> 00:53:25,810
these are places where most of the 

1157
00:53:25,810 --> 00:53:29,290
world population growth is going to 

1158
00:53:29,290 --> 00:53:31,660
occur in the coming years and there are 

1159
00:53:31,660 --> 00:53:34,560
risks here of um you know countries 

1160
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:36,671
becoming overly dependent on a single 

1161
00:53:36,671 --> 00:53:40,200
supplier or being locked into a 

1162
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,460
supplier whose um you know security 

1163
00:53:43,470 --> 00:53:46,430
might not be um you know on the same 

1164
00:53:46,430 --> 00:53:48,950
standard as others and and so I think 

1165
00:53:48,950 --> 00:53:51,770
this is an area that in order to 

1166
00:53:51,770 --> 00:53:54,150
compete the security argument though is 

1167
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:56,317
not going to carry the day in a lot of 

1168
00:53:56,317 --> 00:53:58,372
these markets and it really is about 

1169
00:53:58,372 --> 00:54:01,050
providing affordable alternatives . Um 

1170
00:54:01,050 --> 00:54:03,161
So let me let me leave it there . And 

1171
00:54:03,161 --> 00:54:05,272
also again just recommend that if you 

1172
00:54:05,272 --> 00:54:07,050
are interested in these digital 

1173
00:54:07,050 --> 00:54:09,050
infrastructure issues , we've got a 

1174
00:54:09,050 --> 00:54:11,383
whole bunch of resources on our website , 

1175
00:54:11,383 --> 00:54:13,606
reconnecting asia dot C . S . I . S dot 

1176
00:54:13,606 --> 00:54:17,530
org . Thanks . All 

1177
00:54:17,530 --> 00:54:19,697
right , well , fantastic . A great way 

1178
00:54:19,697 --> 00:54:22,530
to close this out there . So I know 

1179
00:54:22,540 --> 00:54:26,020
Naomi is short on time if I can . She's 

1180
00:54:26,020 --> 00:54:27,909
actually typing back and answer . 

1181
00:54:27,909 --> 00:54:29,853
That's good for that . Um But real 

1182
00:54:29,853 --> 00:54:32,050
quick what I wanted to do . Um if 

1183
00:54:32,050 --> 00:54:34,272
Naomi's got 30 more seconds just to get 

1184
00:54:34,272 --> 00:54:37,340
some initial thoughts on Professor 

1185
00:54:37,340 --> 00:54:40,390
shuns idea of governance in the future 

1186
00:54:40,390 --> 00:54:42,390
of the internet and then Jonathan , 

1187
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:44,446
certainly if you want to chime in on 

1188
00:54:44,446 --> 00:54:46,390
that , that was one of the key key 

1189
00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:48,557
points . I thought that was highlights 

1190
00:54:48,557 --> 00:54:50,668
the differences in approaches and you 

1191
00:54:50,668 --> 00:54:52,779
know , it's not good . It's not bad . 

1192
00:54:52,779 --> 00:54:56,570
It's just different . So um Sure . 

1193
00:54:56,570 --> 00:54:58,820
Yeah , I I have a couple more minutes . 

1194
00:54:58,830 --> 00:55:02,280
Um apologies . I'm on route to a 

1195
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,480
doctor's appointment , but with respect 

1196
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,060
to Professor Shin's remarks . Um I 

1197
00:55:08,060 --> 00:55:11,410
agree completely with um what he was 

1198
00:55:11,410 --> 00:55:15,180
saying about the norms uh the need to 

1199
00:55:15,180 --> 00:55:17,291
agree upon norms in the international 

1200
00:55:17,291 --> 00:55:19,800
community . Um and that china should be 

1201
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,500
a part of those discussions . I think 

1202
00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:26,320
he also accurately represented what the 

1203
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,670
distinction is between um traditional 

1204
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,570
espionage , which is considered , you 

1205
00:55:32,570 --> 00:55:35,290
know , quote unquote inbounds um for 

1206
00:55:35,290 --> 00:55:38,960
all countries versus economic theft . 

1207
00:55:39,340 --> 00:55:41,910
Um And it's it's you know , still a 

1208
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,110
mushy situation . It's it's difficult 

1209
00:55:44,110 --> 00:55:47,860
sometimes to determine um what is or 

1210
00:55:47,860 --> 00:55:51,170
isn't inbounds . Um And especially what 

1211
00:55:51,170 --> 00:55:54,930
the intent is when you have um dual use 

1212
00:55:54,940 --> 00:55:58,360
uh products and and technology at play . 

1213
00:55:58,740 --> 00:56:01,270
Um but I I think , you know , generally 

1214
00:56:01,270 --> 00:56:05,250
he's um on on point that um you 

1215
00:56:05,250 --> 00:56:07,950
know that is the that is the kind of 

1216
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,430
unwritten agreement among governments . 

1217
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,460
Um And so if the U . S . Government 

1218
00:56:12,460 --> 00:56:16,010
doesn't like um the the efforts that 

1219
00:56:16,010 --> 00:56:18,010
the chinese government is making in 

1220
00:56:18,010 --> 00:56:21,600
traditional espionage um then the 

1221
00:56:21,610 --> 00:56:24,450
government has to be prepared to broker 

1222
00:56:24,730 --> 00:56:26,300
a different set of rules 

1223
00:56:26,300 --> 00:56:29,140
internationally . Um And I think you 

1224
00:56:29,140 --> 00:56:32,130
know to Jonathan's points , there are a 

1225
00:56:32,130 --> 00:56:35,110
lot of um you know , really interesting 

1226
00:56:35,110 --> 00:56:37,800
data points there um with respect to 

1227
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:39,744
the infrastructure that Huawei and 

1228
00:56:39,744 --> 00:56:43,660
others are lining up internationally . 

1229
00:56:44,330 --> 00:56:48,090
You know , my my takeaways from um 

1230
00:56:48,090 --> 00:56:51,140
some of that are uh that you know , the 

1231
00:56:51,140 --> 00:56:54,300
U . S . Government arguments um against 

1232
00:56:54,310 --> 00:56:57,690
Huawei in particular um on the security 

1233
00:56:57,690 --> 00:57:00,480
side , um we're simply not compelling 

1234
00:57:00,490 --> 00:57:03,810
and um you know , without giving 

1235
00:57:03,810 --> 00:57:07,040
sufficient evidence . Uh and um 

1236
00:57:07,930 --> 00:57:11,780
you know , a rationale for completely 

1237
00:57:11,780 --> 00:57:14,620
blocking a company . I think that was 

1238
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:18,270
to be expected . So we shouldn't be um 

1239
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,850
you know , surprised that uh you know , 

1240
00:57:21,860 --> 00:57:23,930
other countries are adopting this 

1241
00:57:23,930 --> 00:57:27,850
technology at a good rate . Um I 

1242
00:57:27,930 --> 00:57:30,680
do you agree that governments overly 

1243
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,610
relying on one set of technology and in 

1244
00:57:33,610 --> 00:57:37,440
particular one supplier um is an issue . 

1245
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:39,496
And that's something that you know , 

1246
00:57:39,496 --> 00:57:42,760
the the covid situation has um brought 

1247
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,190
to light which I think is a good thing 

1248
00:57:45,190 --> 00:57:47,640
for for both companies and governments 

1249
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,810
to be able to keep in mind is that you 

1250
00:57:49,810 --> 00:57:52,960
need a diversity of suppliers for a 

1251
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,970
healthy supply chain . Um But at the 

1252
00:57:55,970 --> 00:57:58,280
same time , you know , the U . S . 

1253
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,391
Government needs to be mindful of the 

1254
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,700
the cost imperatives that other 

1255
00:58:02,700 --> 00:58:04,710
governments are facing um and 

1256
00:58:04,710 --> 00:58:06,932
especially if the infrastructure is not 

1257
00:58:06,932 --> 00:58:09,550
used for sensitive government purposes , 

1258
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:11,504
then you have to ask yourself well 

1259
00:58:11,504 --> 00:58:13,449
what's the real risk ? And I think 

1260
00:58:13,449 --> 00:58:15,504
that's the question that governments 

1261
00:58:15,504 --> 00:58:17,580
are are facing , you know , is it a 

1262
00:58:17,580 --> 00:58:21,180
risk that um you know , the the content 

1263
00:58:21,180 --> 00:58:24,250
streaming that um everyday citizens 

1264
00:58:24,260 --> 00:58:27,600
are are are watching might be running 

1265
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,700
over chinese infrastructure ? Um I 

1266
00:58:30,700 --> 00:58:33,470
think you know probably we can say the 

1267
00:58:33,470 --> 00:58:36,360
answer is no . Um so we need to be 

1268
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,400
careful with these blanket statements 

1269
00:58:39,410 --> 00:58:41,920
of what the security imperatives are 

1270
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,960
and are not um as as the U . S . 

1271
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,620
Government in particular looks to um 

1272
00:58:47,630 --> 00:58:50,630
influence other um other countries 

1273
00:58:50,630 --> 00:58:54,460
decisions there . Terrific . Thanks 

1274
00:58:54,460 --> 00:58:55,460
Jonathan , 

1275
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:00,320
thanks . So just on , you know , in 

1276
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,820
terms of the competition aspect of this , 

1277
00:59:02,820 --> 00:59:05,670
I think We be because it's received a 

1278
00:59:05,670 --> 00:59:08,840
lot of attention , I think 5G is often 

1279
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:10,951
on our minds when we're talking about 

1280
00:59:10,951 --> 00:59:13,400
digital infrastructure and in a way , 

1281
00:59:13,410 --> 00:59:16,590
um I mean I I understand it's a very 

1282
00:59:16,590 --> 00:59:20,410
important area but in some of the areas 

1283
00:59:20,420 --> 00:59:22,680
that um I was trying to highlight from 

1284
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:24,458
you know subsea cables to cloud 

1285
00:59:24,458 --> 00:59:26,402
services to some of these emerging 

1286
00:59:26,402 --> 00:59:28,860
satellite offerings , those are areas 

1287
00:59:28,860 --> 00:59:31,180
in which the US has already off the 

1288
00:59:31,180 --> 00:59:33,236
shelf alternatives to offer and so I 

1289
00:59:33,236 --> 00:59:35,458
think it's a it is a much more , it's a 

1290
00:59:35,458 --> 00:59:38,470
different um us has several advantages 

1291
00:59:38,470 --> 00:59:41,500
to to put into play there . Um But I do 

1292
00:59:41,500 --> 00:59:44,040
agree that we um when making the sales 

1293
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:46,096
pitch , I think it's important to do 

1294
00:59:46,096 --> 00:59:48,318
education on security risks and provide 

1295
00:59:48,318 --> 00:59:50,484
technical assistance so that countries 

1296
00:59:50,484 --> 00:59:52,484
can make um you know , be their own 

1297
00:59:52,484 --> 00:59:55,160
best advocates and and be aware of what 

1298
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:57,271
some of the costs down the road might 

1299
00:59:57,271 --> 01:00:00,280
be if if they don't um apply that 

1300
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,720
scrutiny outfront upfront . Um But 

1301
01:00:03,730 --> 01:00:05,930
ultimately I do think that cost 

1302
01:00:05,940 --> 01:00:07,996
affordability are really drivers for 

1303
01:00:07,996 --> 01:00:10,940
decision makers in um in these 

1304
01:00:10,940 --> 01:00:13,990
developing economies . Um and so you 

1305
01:00:13,990 --> 01:00:16,240
know , to compete um we do need to be 

1306
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,030
selling those economic benefits and in 

1307
01:00:19,030 --> 01:00:21,086
some cases I think U . S . Companies 

1308
01:00:21,086 --> 01:00:23,086
are doing some of that and just you 

1309
01:00:23,086 --> 01:00:25,141
know , they it's not being organized 

1310
01:00:25,141 --> 01:00:27,360
under a big um US government banner . 

1311
01:00:27,370 --> 01:00:29,537
Um And that's that's fine , you know , 

1312
01:00:29,537 --> 01:00:31,759
when Google announces a billion dollars 

1313
01:00:31,759 --> 01:00:34,450
that it's going to put into Africa over 

1314
01:00:34,450 --> 01:00:36,930
five years , it's not part of um a 

1315
01:00:36,930 --> 01:00:39,070
grand US plan to counter china's belt 

1316
01:00:39,070 --> 01:00:41,070
and road Initiative is Google being 

1317
01:00:41,070 --> 01:00:43,410
being a an international 

1318
01:00:43,420 --> 01:00:45,620
internationally oriented company that 

1319
01:00:45,620 --> 01:00:49,160
sees opportunities um in Africa . Um So 

1320
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:51,160
I'm I'm encouraged that some of the 

1321
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:53,382
competition is happening , it's just in 

1322
01:00:53,382 --> 01:00:55,716
in certain cases , I do think the U . S . 

1323
01:00:55,716 --> 01:00:58,000
Government could be um uh you know , a 

1324
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,160
little bit more forward leaning um 

1325
01:01:01,170 --> 01:01:04,470
because large companies um large cloud 

1326
01:01:04,470 --> 01:01:07,530
providers I think aren't often as 

1327
01:01:07,530 --> 01:01:09,308
interested in doing the smaller 

1328
01:01:09,308 --> 01:01:11,540
projects that china will do , that will 

1329
01:01:11,540 --> 01:01:14,610
lead to bigger projects later on . Yeah , 

1330
01:01:14,620 --> 01:01:16,620
no that's a great point . And again 

1331
01:01:16,620 --> 01:01:18,787
just a different approach in different 

1332
01:01:18,787 --> 01:01:21,009
systems . So it's important to remember 

1333
01:01:21,009 --> 01:01:22,842
that there's this whole thing is 

1334
01:01:22,842 --> 01:01:25,064
multifaceted and there's not uh not any 

1335
01:01:25,064 --> 01:01:27,120
clear black and white answers as you 

1336
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:29,176
pointed out . So uh Professor Sun II 

1337
01:01:29,176 --> 01:01:31,342
you did a great job of kind of talking 

1338
01:01:31,342 --> 01:01:33,564
about china's view of governance and in 

1339
01:01:33,564 --> 01:01:35,731
the future . And I know we've talked a 

1340
01:01:35,731 --> 01:01:37,787
lot today about uh U . S . And china 

1341
01:01:37,787 --> 01:01:39,731
and the and the back and forth . I 

1342
01:01:39,731 --> 01:01:41,564
wonder if you could just kind of 

1343
01:01:41,564 --> 01:01:43,620
outline what is china doing with the 

1344
01:01:43,620 --> 01:01:45,509
rest of the world . Uh you know , 

1345
01:01:45,509 --> 01:01:47,676
Jonathan's laid out as part of the B . 

1346
01:01:47,676 --> 01:01:49,842
R . I . But for specifically for cyber 

1347
01:01:49,842 --> 01:01:52,064
governance , how is china engaging with 

1348
01:01:52,064 --> 01:01:54,300
with europe , the Eu or with Asean or 

1349
01:01:54,300 --> 01:01:56,970
other nations in developing standards 

1350
01:01:56,970 --> 01:02:00,370
and norms as my know , First , the 

1351
01:02:00,370 --> 01:02:03,140
chinese government learns a lot from 

1352
01:02:03,140 --> 01:02:05,510
the G . D . P . R . To regulate how to 

1353
01:02:05,510 --> 01:02:08,240
protection privacy information and to 

1354
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:11,810
build its new laws protecting privacy 

1355
01:02:11,810 --> 01:02:13,980
information . The first , which means 

1356
01:02:14,140 --> 01:02:16,362
the learning experience from the europe 

1357
01:02:16,362 --> 01:02:19,380
side and the second from china's side 

1358
01:02:19,390 --> 01:02:21,690
providing the developing countries , 

1359
01:02:21,700 --> 01:02:24,580
this digital uh digital 

1360
01:02:24,580 --> 01:02:27,480
infrastructures is quite necessary 

1361
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:30,480
because uh those developing countries 

1362
01:02:30,490 --> 01:02:32,540
before china entered their market . 

1363
01:02:32,550 --> 01:02:34,800
They did not have opportunities or 

1364
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:38,150
either they cannot afford the cost to 

1365
01:02:38,150 --> 01:02:40,470
have their own digital infrastructures 

1366
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:42,920
which is very important for the 

1367
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:45,950
economic development and to china's 

1368
01:02:45,950 --> 01:02:49,720
side , we also try to uh accept 

1369
01:02:49,730 --> 01:02:52,530
are learning from the critics from all 

1370
01:02:52,530 --> 01:02:54,474
sides , especially from the United 

1371
01:02:54,474 --> 01:02:57,920
States , to accept this positive aspect 

1372
01:02:58,300 --> 01:03:01,260
from these critics to improve china's 

1373
01:03:01,260 --> 01:03:04,280
capacities and their patterns or doing 

1374
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,550
business . Because what they did , at 

1375
01:03:06,550 --> 01:03:09,110
least from china side , is nothing more 

1376
01:03:09,110 --> 01:03:12,230
than doing normal business with these 

1377
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,573
developing countries , especially our B . 

1378
01:03:14,573 --> 01:03:18,420
I . Initiations . And to the 

1379
01:03:19,460 --> 01:03:22,820
Our issues I'd like to raise one point . 

1380
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,620
It's very important to understand to 

1381
01:03:26,620 --> 01:03:30,290
notice that in quite a long time . So 

1382
01:03:30,290 --> 01:03:33,440
who are we tried a lot to clear its 

1383
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:35,107
relationship with the chinese 

1384
01:03:35,107 --> 01:03:37,170
government , not toward the U . S . 

1385
01:03:37,170 --> 01:03:39,420
Government but towards chinese people's 

1386
01:03:39,900 --> 01:03:42,860
in quite a long time . Inside china 

1387
01:03:42,870 --> 01:03:46,580
huawei very tried very very best 

1388
01:03:46,590 --> 01:03:49,190
to clarify . It's a kind of 

1389
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:51,660
international companies rather than a 

1390
01:03:51,660 --> 01:03:54,820
chinese companies . It's an independent 

1391
01:03:54,830 --> 01:03:57,940
international companies obey the very 

1392
01:03:57,940 --> 01:04:01,380
strict international business 

1393
01:04:01,390 --> 01:04:04,030
standard and the rules rather than a 

1394
01:04:04,030 --> 01:04:06,830
single chinese companies . But it's not , 

1395
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:08,850
it's quite clear that the U . S . 

1396
01:04:08,850 --> 01:04:11,290
Government , they just don't believe 

1397
01:04:11,300 --> 01:04:13,510
because how it's a chinese company . 

1398
01:04:13,890 --> 01:04:15,510
But in china we have another 

1399
01:04:15,510 --> 01:04:18,270
explanation of this waste . It's called 

1400
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:21,920
securitization . It's another name of 

1401
01:04:21,930 --> 01:04:25,000
trade protectionism in which it means 

1402
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,800
that you cannot compete with Huawei in 

1403
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,430
a fair ways , you try to take advantage 

1404
01:04:30,430 --> 01:04:33,650
of these security issues as kind of 

1405
01:04:33,660 --> 01:04:37,120
excuse . And sometimes those 

1406
01:04:37,130 --> 01:04:39,710
disinformation provided by the news 

1407
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:41,870
represented by Bloomberg , the 

1408
01:04:41,870 --> 01:04:43,800
Bloomberg set up a report said , 

1409
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,920
defined in the box inside the huawei 

1410
01:04:53,490 --> 01:04:55,323
cyber connection strikes again . 

1411
01:04:59,990 --> 01:05:02,323
Let's see if he pops back on real quick . 

1412
01:05:04,990 --> 01:05:07,157
If not , I'm kind of following on that 

1413
01:05:07,157 --> 01:05:09,268
same thread , Jonathan , what I was , 

1414
01:05:09,268 --> 01:05:11,601
what I was trying to drive out there is , 

1415
01:05:11,601 --> 01:05:13,823
you know , as china goes and builds the 

1416
01:05:13,823 --> 01:05:15,823
infrastructure in these places that 

1417
01:05:15,823 --> 01:05:17,934
you've outlined , does that make them 

1418
01:05:17,934 --> 01:05:20,157
more likely less like or or really have 

1419
01:05:20,157 --> 01:05:22,212
no influence on supporting china and 

1420
01:05:22,212 --> 01:05:24,323
their views of global governance ? Uh 

1421
01:05:24,323 --> 01:05:26,657
you know , at the uh you know the I . T . 

1422
01:05:26,657 --> 01:05:28,823
You at the U . N . And all these other 

1423
01:05:28,823 --> 01:05:30,990
kind of places that are really walking 

1424
01:05:30,990 --> 01:05:30,980
in the background but set all the 

1425
01:05:30,980 --> 01:05:33,091
standards and have a huge effect that 

1426
01:05:33,091 --> 01:05:35,147
very few of us actually appreciate . 

1427
01:05:37,590 --> 01:05:39,900
Yeah , I do I do see these projects as 

1428
01:05:39,900 --> 01:05:42,067
an avenue for having influence in some 

1429
01:05:42,067 --> 01:05:44,122
of those four . Uh and um you know , 

1430
01:05:44,122 --> 01:05:47,640
you see instances of um at least the 

1431
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:51,110
rhetoric about cyber sovereignty 

1432
01:05:51,490 --> 01:05:54,780
being emulated in some developing 

1433
01:05:54,780 --> 01:05:56,640
countries and you know , some 

1434
01:05:56,650 --> 01:05:58,372
concerning trends towards data 

1435
01:05:58,372 --> 01:06:00,230
localization . I mean , cyber 

1436
01:06:00,230 --> 01:06:02,320
sovereignty can mean very different 

1437
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:04,542
things , but it's attractive to lots of 

1438
01:06:04,542 --> 01:06:08,020
different um groups . Um and so I mean 

1439
01:06:08,020 --> 01:06:10,570
in some cases the country will say , 

1440
01:06:10,580 --> 01:06:12,524
you know that a that a data center 

1441
01:06:12,524 --> 01:06:14,691
that's being provided by um you know , 

1442
01:06:14,691 --> 01:06:16,580
a foreign company with foreign 

1443
01:06:16,580 --> 01:06:19,050
financing operated by foreign workers 

1444
01:06:19,060 --> 01:06:21,280
is contributing to its cyber 

1445
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:25,280
sovereignty um and which is a 

1446
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:27,840
little bit rich . Um but then some of 

1447
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:30,420
the technical assistance that comes 

1448
01:06:30,420 --> 01:06:34,260
with these , these projects , um you 

1449
01:06:34,260 --> 01:06:37,780
know , it your training , um , you know , 

1450
01:06:37,790 --> 01:06:40,430
your training , um foreign officials in 

1451
01:06:40,430 --> 01:06:43,210
some cases . Um and I think all of that 

1452
01:06:43,210 --> 01:06:45,266
can reinforce or make it more likely 

1453
01:06:45,266 --> 01:06:48,060
for , um , you know , views to , you 

1454
01:06:48,060 --> 01:06:50,300
know , overlap with the party that's 

1455
01:06:50,300 --> 01:06:54,120
providing the training . Yeah , I know 

1456
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:56,150
that that makes a lot of sense and 

1457
01:06:56,150 --> 01:06:58,317
that's kind of one of the , one of the 

1458
01:06:58,317 --> 01:07:00,483
issues there is , you know , I I guess 

1459
01:07:00,483 --> 01:07:02,706
there's a , you know , clearly no right 

1460
01:07:02,706 --> 01:07:04,928
or wrong in this as to how you approach 

1461
01:07:04,928 --> 01:07:06,817
governance and again , you know , 

1462
01:07:06,817 --> 01:07:06,710
although we've been dealing with cyber 

1463
01:07:06,710 --> 01:07:09,180
issues now for a little while here , 

1464
01:07:09,190 --> 01:07:11,134
they are still fairly new and they 

1465
01:07:11,134 --> 01:07:13,246
continue to develop . So , you know , 

1466
01:07:13,246 --> 01:07:15,246
the issues of cyber sovereignty and 

1467
01:07:15,246 --> 01:07:17,468
what does that actually mean ? Um and I 

1468
01:07:17,468 --> 01:07:19,523
think it's interesting to talk about 

1469
01:07:19,523 --> 01:07:21,246
now the cables and things that 

1470
01:07:21,246 --> 01:07:23,468
connected because I know , certainly in 

1471
01:07:23,468 --> 01:07:25,579
the world of finance , uh this is one 

1472
01:07:25,579 --> 01:07:25,450
of the levels that the United States 

1473
01:07:25,460 --> 01:07:28,150
uses from time to time , is the fact 

1474
01:07:28,150 --> 01:07:30,206
that , you know , all the cables and 

1475
01:07:30,206 --> 01:07:32,317
even if there is an exchange of money 

1476
01:07:32,317 --> 01:07:34,483
that has nothing to do with the United 

1477
01:07:34,483 --> 01:07:36,428
States itself , you know , between 

1478
01:07:36,428 --> 01:07:38,650
other companies or countries , uh , you 

1479
01:07:38,650 --> 01:07:40,650
know , for oil , example , a lot of 

1480
01:07:40,650 --> 01:07:40,280
that still flows through the swift 

1481
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,560
system through us US banking and that 

1482
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:44,410
allows us to have , you know , a 

1483
01:07:44,410 --> 01:07:46,577
particular lever if we want to execute 

1484
01:07:46,577 --> 01:07:48,799
sanctions or , you know , the threat of 

1485
01:07:48,799 --> 01:07:51,770
sanctions . And so as we develop this 

1486
01:07:51,780 --> 01:07:54,040
continue to develop the digital age . 

1487
01:07:54,050 --> 01:07:56,272
And as the digital economy grows , some 

1488
01:07:56,272 --> 01:07:58,439
of those questions that you , that you 

1489
01:07:58,439 --> 01:08:00,550
highlight there in the book , I think 

1490
01:08:00,550 --> 01:08:02,661
you're really gonna be central to how 

1491
01:08:02,661 --> 01:08:04,606
we go forward . We , we the United 

1492
01:08:04,606 --> 01:08:06,717
States , we the department as well as 

1493
01:08:06,717 --> 01:08:08,828
we the world and how we solve some of 

1494
01:08:08,828 --> 01:08:10,883
these issues . So Professor Sean , I 

1495
01:08:10,883 --> 01:08:12,883
see you're back on if you wanted to 

1496
01:08:12,883 --> 01:08:15,106
make a comment there ? Yeah , I see the 

1497
01:08:15,106 --> 01:08:18,600
stuff that's , so 

1498
01:08:20,170 --> 01:08:23,400
we did have a question in the chat . A 

1499
01:08:23,410 --> 01:08:25,577
couple of questions actually , but one 

1500
01:08:25,577 --> 01:08:27,799
of which , uh , Miss Wilson was able to 

1501
01:08:27,799 --> 01:08:30,021
answer before she had to jump off . But 

1502
01:08:30,021 --> 01:08:29,600
I just wanted to let everyone know 

1503
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:32,170
we're talking about the intrusions that 

1504
01:08:32,170 --> 01:08:34,430
are going on and uh , you know , is 

1505
01:08:34,430 --> 01:08:36,900
necessarily a drop in . What we see . 

1506
01:08:36,910 --> 01:08:39,310
Does that indicate there's an overall 

1507
01:08:39,310 --> 01:08:41,532
drop ? Or perhaps are there , are there 

1508
01:08:41,532 --> 01:08:43,754
reasons behind it ? Um , and she says , 

1509
01:08:43,754 --> 01:08:46,150
you know , hey , people , people on all 

1510
01:08:46,150 --> 01:08:48,261
sides continue to spy on each other . 

1511
01:08:48,261 --> 01:08:50,372
And again , we have to just , we have 

1512
01:08:50,372 --> 01:08:52,840
different opinions on what is , and is 

1513
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:54,840
not inbound . Certainly traditional 

1514
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:57,007
spying that happens to be done through 

1515
01:08:57,007 --> 01:08:58,840
cyber means , uh , you know , we 

1516
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:00,951
continue to see that inbounds some of 

1517
01:09:00,951 --> 01:09:02,896
the economics , right ? The United 

1518
01:09:02,896 --> 01:09:02,190
States doesn't , but we have to 

1519
01:09:02,190 --> 01:09:04,357
remember we have partners and allies , 

1520
01:09:04,357 --> 01:09:06,640
uh some in europe , you know , some on 

1521
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:09,640
the mediterranean uh there that take a 

1522
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:11,862
different view than we do . So it's not 

1523
01:09:11,862 --> 01:09:13,862
it's not just china and the US view 

1524
01:09:13,862 --> 01:09:15,529
again , it's multifaceted and 

1525
01:09:15,529 --> 01:09:17,362
multinational , multinational uh 

1526
01:09:17,362 --> 01:09:19,251
Professor Sean pointed out in the 

1527
01:09:19,251 --> 01:09:21,418
comments that , you know , the U . S . 

1528
01:09:21,418 --> 01:09:23,418
Capacity to spy on china is just as 

1529
01:09:23,418 --> 01:09:25,584
equal as the capacity for china to spy 

1530
01:09:25,584 --> 01:09:27,751
on the United States . And that is one 

1531
01:09:27,751 --> 01:09:29,529
thing we need to keep in mind , 

1532
01:09:29,529 --> 01:09:31,529
especially here in Washington . You 

1533
01:09:31,529 --> 01:09:31,370
know , if you read the papers and 

1534
01:09:31,370 --> 01:09:34,830
things like that , you certainly get uh 

1535
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,820
a particular view of the world um that 

1536
01:09:37,830 --> 01:09:39,997
not everyone around the world shares , 

1537
01:09:39,997 --> 01:09:42,108
right ? And there's there's shades of 

1538
01:09:42,108 --> 01:09:45,180
gray and all that . Um And so 

1539
01:09:45,570 --> 01:09:48,320
anyhow , uh so Jonathan , I don't know 

1540
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:50,542
if you saw that question in the chat or 

1541
01:09:50,542 --> 01:09:52,320
not , if you had any additional 

1542
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:54,440
thoughts you wanted to add . No , 

1543
01:09:54,440 --> 01:09:57,020
that's fine , thanks . And then there 

1544
01:09:57,020 --> 01:09:59,076
was another question about how do we 

1545
01:09:59,076 --> 01:10:01,242
engage with china is the best to do it 

1546
01:10:01,242 --> 01:10:03,720
bilaterally or multilaterally ? Uh You 

1547
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:05,887
know , MS Wilson put in there the fact 

1548
01:10:05,887 --> 01:10:08,790
that really needs to be both . Um but , 

1549
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:10,911
you know , given the current state of 

1550
01:10:10,911 --> 01:10:12,967
our bilateral relationship , perhaps 

1551
01:10:12,967 --> 01:10:15,133
multilateral is really the way to go . 

1552
01:10:15,133 --> 01:10:17,970
Um And I think I think at least the 

1553
01:10:17,970 --> 01:10:19,860
tentative steps under the biden 

1554
01:10:19,860 --> 01:10:22,730
administration seemed to indicate that 

1555
01:10:22,730 --> 01:10:25,220
there's a slight shift there and then 

1556
01:10:25,220 --> 01:10:27,220
perhaps that's a , that's how we'll 

1557
01:10:27,220 --> 01:10:29,220
move forward . But um , I think and 

1558
01:10:29,220 --> 01:10:31,387
this again goes back to the whole belt 

1559
01:10:31,387 --> 01:10:33,164
and road , right ? I mean china 

1560
01:10:33,164 --> 01:10:35,276
certainly wants to engage the rest of 

1561
01:10:35,276 --> 01:10:37,387
the world , not just simply through a 

1562
01:10:37,387 --> 01:10:39,387
china US lens , right ? But through 

1563
01:10:39,387 --> 01:10:41,498
these multifaceted lens , they have a 

1564
01:10:41,498 --> 01:10:43,220
great partnership with African 

1565
01:10:43,220 --> 01:10:45,109
countries individually as well as 

1566
01:10:45,109 --> 01:10:47,331
Africa as a whole and same goes for for 

1567
01:10:47,331 --> 01:10:49,498
Asean . So I think I think the U . S . 

1568
01:10:49,498 --> 01:10:52,340
Would be well suited to to think about 

1569
01:10:52,340 --> 01:10:54,284
those things and as we adopt these 

1570
01:10:54,284 --> 01:10:56,451
policies and and really just the ideas 

1571
01:10:56,451 --> 01:10:58,340
of governance as they continue to 

1572
01:10:58,340 --> 01:11:00,173
develop , it needs to be focused 

1573
01:11:00,173 --> 01:11:02,950
multilaterally . So , um , again , 

1574
01:11:02,950 --> 01:11:05,061
Jonathan points , you want to jump in 

1575
01:11:05,061 --> 01:11:07,006
on that . Again , I'm just reading 

1576
01:11:07,006 --> 01:11:09,117
these things that she typed in before 

1577
01:11:09,117 --> 01:11:11,117
before she had to jump off . No , I 

1578
01:11:11,117 --> 01:11:13,660
think um , I think that's fine , but 

1579
01:11:13,660 --> 01:11:16,600
thanks . Okay , so I continue to urge 

1580
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:19,220
people use the Q . And a function if 

1581
01:11:19,220 --> 01:11:21,220
you're on Youtube or facebook , put 

1582
01:11:21,220 --> 01:11:23,109
them in the comments section will 

1583
01:11:23,109 --> 01:11:25,331
continue to get to it . Uh , and so the 

1584
01:11:25,331 --> 01:11:27,498
next real question was I thought Naomi 

1585
01:11:27,498 --> 01:11:29,442
did a great , great job of kind of 

1586
01:11:29,442 --> 01:11:31,609
pointing out the , so what of things . 

1587
01:11:31,609 --> 01:11:33,831
Right . But the following question that 

1588
01:11:33,831 --> 01:11:37,340
is , so what's next ? Um , and so as we 

1589
01:11:37,340 --> 01:11:39,507
continue to go forward , you know , we 

1590
01:11:39,507 --> 01:11:41,673
see five G . We already talked about , 

1591
01:11:41,673 --> 01:11:43,507
you know , what happens the next 

1592
01:11:43,507 --> 01:11:45,562
generation of that , the internet of 

1593
01:11:45,562 --> 01:11:47,729
things , you know , laying cables , we 

1594
01:11:47,729 --> 01:11:47,380
didn't really even talk about space . 

1595
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:50,010
Right ? So , you know , cyber provision 

1596
01:11:50,020 --> 01:11:52,020
or provisions of cyber services and 

1597
01:11:52,020 --> 01:11:53,964
internet services through space is 

1598
01:11:53,964 --> 01:11:56,280
certainly going to be a huge change 

1599
01:11:56,660 --> 01:11:58,960
across the world . It will bring 

1600
01:11:58,970 --> 01:12:01,300
capabilities to people that don't have 

1601
01:12:01,300 --> 01:12:03,420
them now . Uh and it will be provided 

1602
01:12:03,420 --> 01:12:05,198
by china by the United States , 

1603
01:12:05,198 --> 01:12:07,142
presumably by Russia or at least a 

1604
01:12:07,142 --> 01:12:09,364
Russian company and as well as europe , 

1605
01:12:09,364 --> 01:12:11,420
so john and I would like to get , as 

1606
01:12:11,420 --> 01:12:13,642
you , you know , look into your crystal 

1607
01:12:13,642 --> 01:12:15,809
ball there and see the future of these 

1608
01:12:15,809 --> 01:12:17,976
things developing , you know , what do 

1609
01:12:17,976 --> 01:12:20,031
you , what do you kind of , what are 

1610
01:12:20,031 --> 01:12:19,580
the main things that we should be 

1611
01:12:19,580 --> 01:12:21,913
thinking about as we look to the future ? 

1612
01:12:23,250 --> 01:12:25,670
So if we think about the first phase of 

1613
01:12:25,670 --> 01:12:27,781
the , the tech competition , at least 

1614
01:12:27,781 --> 01:12:30,003
the recent tech competition between the 

1615
01:12:30,003 --> 01:12:32,114
United States and China being focused 

1616
01:12:32,114 --> 01:12:34,160
on 5G . And I think it was mainly a 

1617
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:37,250
story of um you know , advanced 

1618
01:12:37,250 --> 01:12:39,420
economies applying more scrutiny , 

1619
01:12:39,430 --> 01:12:41,597
ultimately , but the rest of the world 

1620
01:12:41,597 --> 01:12:43,950
still still in play . I think the next 

1621
01:12:43,950 --> 01:12:47,000
phase will be potentially broader range 

1622
01:12:47,010 --> 01:12:49,870
of related technologies . So I think , 

1623
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:52,330
you know , cloud computing will become 

1624
01:12:52,340 --> 01:12:55,040
the competition there , we'll intensify 

1625
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:57,310
a little bit there , several chinese 

1626
01:12:57,310 --> 01:12:59,360
cloud providers who are relatively 

1627
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:01,416
small outside of china , I mean they 

1628
01:13:01,416 --> 01:13:03,582
enjoy great protections within china , 

1629
01:13:03,582 --> 01:13:05,749
but they're relatively small , outside 

1630
01:13:05,749 --> 01:13:07,471
china , but very interested in 

1631
01:13:07,471 --> 01:13:09,471
expanding into southeast asia latin 

1632
01:13:09,471 --> 01:13:11,650
America other markets . Um So I think 

1633
01:13:11,650 --> 01:13:14,250
that's going to intensify um a little 

1634
01:13:14,250 --> 01:13:17,260
bit of the arrival of these low earth 

1635
01:13:17,270 --> 01:13:19,340
orbit broadband services I think is 

1636
01:13:19,340 --> 01:13:22,110
also um you know , a really interesting 

1637
01:13:22,110 --> 01:13:24,770
development , one that could open new 

1638
01:13:24,770 --> 01:13:26,760
avenues for the U . S . And its 

1639
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:29,310
partners and allies to provide global 

1640
01:13:29,310 --> 01:13:31,254
connectivity um if they're able to 

1641
01:13:31,254 --> 01:13:33,477
marshal resources to maybe even through 

1642
01:13:33,477 --> 01:13:35,643
the World Bank to help support some of 

1643
01:13:35,643 --> 01:13:37,699
that . Um and an issue that I didn't 

1644
01:13:37,699 --> 01:13:40,550
mention um related to that , but 

1645
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:42,760
probably of interest to this audience 

1646
01:13:42,770 --> 01:13:44,420
is just that I think is that 

1647
01:13:44,420 --> 01:13:46,364
competition continues when we were 

1648
01:13:46,364 --> 01:13:48,142
talking about constellations of 

1649
01:13:48,142 --> 01:13:51,580
thousands of satellites being put into 

1650
01:13:51,580 --> 01:13:54,150
orbit . And so there's also going to be 

1651
01:13:54,150 --> 01:13:57,950
a need for coordination uh even even 

1652
01:13:57,950 --> 01:14:00,410
between among competitors to ensure 

1653
01:14:00,410 --> 01:14:02,400
that , you know , we're avoiding 

1654
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:04,940
accidents um that you know , safety 

1655
01:14:04,940 --> 01:14:08,140
measures are in place because you know 

1656
01:14:08,140 --> 01:14:11,010
it you've just got a kind of recipe 

1657
01:14:11,010 --> 01:14:13,710
there for unintended consequences if 

1658
01:14:13,710 --> 01:14:16,810
we're not careful . Yeah , that's 

1659
01:14:16,810 --> 01:14:18,477
terrific . And that's uh that 

1660
01:14:18,477 --> 01:14:20,699
highlights another one of the key areas 

1661
01:14:20,699 --> 01:14:22,643
that Cathy likes to look at his uh 

1662
01:14:22,643 --> 01:14:24,532
space situation awareness , space 

1663
01:14:24,532 --> 01:14:26,643
traffic management . Uh And obviously 

1664
01:14:26,643 --> 01:14:26,560
that's one of our bread and butter 

1665
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:28,616
issues here at the aerospace studies 

1666
01:14:28,616 --> 01:14:30,671
Institute . So that's great that you 

1667
01:14:30,671 --> 01:14:32,920
highlight that Professor shun what as 

1668
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:35,170
you look forward , you know , china has 

1669
01:14:35,170 --> 01:14:37,540
the chinese system has some great 

1670
01:14:37,540 --> 01:14:41,180
unique capabilities uh and has some 

1671
01:14:41,190 --> 01:14:43,510
developing commercial both in the 

1672
01:14:43,510 --> 01:14:45,732
satellite realm and then the you know , 

1673
01:14:45,732 --> 01:14:47,788
just a cyber provisions realm . What 

1674
01:14:47,788 --> 01:14:49,399
does china see as the future 

1675
01:14:49,399 --> 01:14:53,200
development , the 

1676
01:14:53,210 --> 01:14:55,377
future development of internet is very 

1677
01:14:55,377 --> 01:14:57,880
important . And the chinese china's 

1678
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:00,102
government will continue to improvement 

1679
01:15:00,102 --> 01:15:03,030
its capacities to regulate the 

1680
01:15:03,030 --> 01:15:05,990
behaviors in the cyberspace so that the 

1681
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:08,056
development of digital economies can 

1682
01:15:08,056 --> 01:15:09,980
boost the development of national 

1683
01:15:09,980 --> 01:15:12,147
economies . And the chinese government 

1684
01:15:12,147 --> 01:15:14,800
can , with the help of internet to 

1685
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:16,890
launch more effective governance 

1686
01:15:16,890 --> 01:15:19,780
capacities to providing better lives to 

1687
01:15:19,780 --> 01:15:21,669
normal chinese peoples . And also 

1688
01:15:21,669 --> 01:15:23,836
chinese government wants to contribute 

1689
01:15:23,836 --> 01:15:26,280
the law more to global cyberspace 

1690
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:29,240
governance issues which were helping to 

1691
01:15:29,250 --> 01:15:32,580
building the norms in the framework of 

1692
01:15:32,590 --> 01:15:34,812
ou W . G . In the U . N . Framework and 

1693
01:15:34,812 --> 01:15:37,460
so on . I think in more very brief in 

1694
01:15:37,460 --> 01:15:40,370
general , which yeah that's the yeah . 

1695
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:42,896
Uh and I like to remind people , you 

1696
01:15:42,896 --> 01:15:44,840
know , china has far more internet 

1697
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:46,896
users than the United States even as 

1698
01:15:46,896 --> 01:15:49,080
people . So , you know , this is uh 

1699
01:15:49,090 --> 01:15:51,257
this is an important it's an important 

1700
01:15:51,257 --> 01:15:53,312
issue for all chinese people , write 

1701
01:15:53,312 --> 01:15:55,423
not just government to government but 

1702
01:15:55,423 --> 01:15:57,534
certainly companies and the people at 

1703
01:15:57,534 --> 01:15:59,701
the grassroots , you know , I remember 

1704
01:15:59,701 --> 01:16:01,701
there were villages that we visited 

1705
01:16:01,701 --> 01:16:03,590
when we were living in china that 

1706
01:16:03,590 --> 01:16:05,757
recently just recently had gotten full 

1707
01:16:05,757 --> 01:16:07,701
time power and they had skipped an 

1708
01:16:07,701 --> 01:16:09,423
entire generation , nobody had 

1709
01:16:09,423 --> 01:16:11,534
landlines , everybody had cell phones 

1710
01:16:11,534 --> 01:16:13,757
and cell phones . So to that point that 

1711
01:16:13,757 --> 01:16:15,701
the real challenge is not from the 

1712
01:16:15,701 --> 01:16:18,280
chinese government is from the frankly 

1713
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:20,169
speaking the U . S . Government , 

1714
01:16:20,169 --> 01:16:22,490
what's us government treatment for 

1715
01:16:22,490 --> 01:16:24,768
those chinese companies doing business ? 

1716
01:16:24,768 --> 01:16:27,150
For example the Tiktok that we chat , 

1717
01:16:27,530 --> 01:16:30,560
it's launched very important effect to 

1718
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:33,220
these companies understanding to Sino 

1719
01:16:33,220 --> 01:16:36,860
US relations and it will improvement a 

1720
01:16:36,860 --> 01:16:40,120
lot to chinese people's to understand 

1721
01:16:40,130 --> 01:16:43,310
how to estimate US policy on cyber 

1722
01:16:43,310 --> 01:16:46,600
issues and so on when trump governments 

1723
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:50,170
launched very critical policies either 

1724
01:16:50,170 --> 01:16:53,490
too far away or to Tiktok and 

1725
01:16:53,490 --> 01:16:56,100
sometimes breaking up the perceptions 

1726
01:16:56,100 --> 01:16:57,980
for normal chinese people's and 

1727
01:16:57,980 --> 01:17:01,380
especially do damage to the supervisors 

1728
01:17:01,380 --> 01:17:03,213
of these chinese companies . For 

1729
01:17:03,213 --> 01:17:05,547
example , the founding father of Tiktok , 

1730
01:17:05,547 --> 01:17:08,290
the is famous for its favorite for US 

1731
01:17:08,290 --> 01:17:11,330
model of governance in company issues 

1732
01:17:11,340 --> 01:17:14,680
and provide producing and there's a 

1733
01:17:14,690 --> 01:17:18,070
big how to say duplicated the success 

1734
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:21,210
mode of of US companies is their dreams . 

1735
01:17:21,220 --> 01:17:23,750
But frankly speaking , the experience 

1736
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:25,927
of doing business in the United States 

1737
01:17:25,927 --> 01:17:27,927
is not that good for these kinds of 

1738
01:17:27,927 --> 01:17:30,980
peoples and in futures if Sino US 

1739
01:17:30,980 --> 01:17:32,990
relationships can go back to normal 

1740
01:17:32,990 --> 01:17:35,560
wage and if Washington can 

1741
01:17:36,030 --> 01:17:39,100
restored traditional , more rational 

1742
01:17:39,100 --> 01:17:42,330
policy on dealing with all these things , 

1743
01:17:42,340 --> 01:17:45,750
maybe it will have more positive effect . 

1744
01:17:46,230 --> 01:17:49,030
Um those normal people's normal 

1745
01:17:49,030 --> 01:17:51,330
companies in the digital field in 

1746
01:17:51,330 --> 01:17:55,100
cyberspace issues . No that's that's 

1747
01:17:55,100 --> 01:17:57,140
great . We're we got a couple of 

1748
01:17:57,140 --> 01:17:59,196
minutes left and I wanted to ask you 

1749
01:17:59,196 --> 01:18:01,362
one final question then we'll give you 

1750
01:18:01,362 --> 01:18:03,418
a minute or two to sum up or or give 

1751
01:18:03,418 --> 01:18:05,362
any last remarks . But I guess the 

1752
01:18:05,362 --> 01:18:07,473
question right now is that , you know 

1753
01:18:07,473 --> 01:18:07,420
with the United States looks at china 

1754
01:18:07,420 --> 01:18:09,587
when china look to the United States , 

1755
01:18:09,587 --> 01:18:11,864
we tend to see them both is 10 ft tall . 

1756
01:18:11,864 --> 01:18:14,630
Uh you know and and out out pacing each 

1757
01:18:14,630 --> 01:18:16,574
other . Right ? And I think that's 

1758
01:18:16,574 --> 01:18:18,186
probably true true from both 

1759
01:18:18,186 --> 01:18:20,570
perspectives . But we also have some 

1760
01:18:20,580 --> 01:18:22,691
both have some serious things to work 

1761
01:18:22,691 --> 01:18:24,913
on it . So what I wanted to do was just 

1762
01:18:24,913 --> 01:18:27,136
get your impression of Professor Sean . 

1763
01:18:27,136 --> 01:18:29,358
What does china need to work on ? Where 

1764
01:18:29,358 --> 01:18:31,413
is china behind ? Right . One of the 

1765
01:18:31,413 --> 01:18:33,580
some of the weaknesses we have there . 

1766
01:18:33,580 --> 01:18:33,270
And then Jonathan same question to you 

1767
01:18:33,270 --> 01:18:35,326
except for from the US perspective , 

1768
01:18:35,326 --> 01:18:37,326
you know , do a do a self survey of 

1769
01:18:37,326 --> 01:18:39,214
what do we need to do better . So 

1770
01:18:39,214 --> 01:18:41,740
Professor Sun from china side , chinese 

1771
01:18:41,740 --> 01:18:44,430
government needs to improvement its 

1772
01:18:44,430 --> 01:18:47,770
side of the policy regulation systems , 

1773
01:18:47,780 --> 01:18:50,490
cyber cyber related regulation systems 

1774
01:18:50,490 --> 01:18:52,712
in more general ways . Which means that 

1775
01:18:52,712 --> 01:18:54,800
we're living finally uh since our 

1776
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:56,930
economic development china become the 

1777
01:18:56,930 --> 01:18:59,530
number two of the countries in the 

1778
01:18:59,530 --> 01:19:03,020
world , chinese governments need to uh 

1779
01:19:03,030 --> 01:19:05,300
make become more open up in the 

1780
01:19:05,300 --> 01:19:07,880
cyberspace . Need to launch more 

1781
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:11,110
transparency systems and launch a more 

1782
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:13,600
effective policies to balance the 

1783
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:15,840
protecting of privacy informations , 

1784
01:19:15,850 --> 01:19:19,230
boost digital economies and keep 

1785
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:21,720
protecting national securities . It 

1786
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:24,260
will challenge to the general 

1787
01:19:24,260 --> 01:19:27,200
capacities . How in which way the 

1788
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:29,422
chinese government can be more tolerant 

1789
01:19:29,422 --> 01:19:31,422
to those informations spreading the 

1790
01:19:31,422 --> 01:19:33,422
cyberspace in more general ways and 

1791
01:19:33,422 --> 01:19:35,367
whether the chinese government can 

1792
01:19:35,367 --> 01:19:37,533
become more open , especially open the 

1793
01:19:37,533 --> 01:19:39,533
domestic market for those huge tech 

1794
01:19:39,533 --> 01:19:41,700
companies all around , especially from 

1795
01:19:41,700 --> 01:19:43,867
the United States of course in certain 

1796
01:19:43,867 --> 01:19:46,033
ways , you know what that means and we 

1797
01:19:46,033 --> 01:19:48,256
need to improve our systems , represent 

1798
01:19:48,256 --> 01:19:50,970
those regulations systems and the 

1799
01:19:50,980 --> 01:19:53,670
second is for those peoples working 

1800
01:19:53,670 --> 01:19:56,340
inside chinese government and it needs 

1801
01:19:56,340 --> 01:19:59,840
to have a new perceptions and then it 

1802
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:02,440
will how to become more tolerant 

1803
01:20:02,810 --> 01:20:06,130
towards conflict or those very 

1804
01:20:06,510 --> 01:20:09,930
sharp critic point informations from 

1805
01:20:09,930 --> 01:20:11,986
outside , especially from the United 

1806
01:20:11,986 --> 01:20:13,986
States . And then both china United 

1807
01:20:13,986 --> 01:20:16,097
States , both china and United States 

1808
01:20:16,097 --> 01:20:18,330
need to become more confident and 

1809
01:20:18,330 --> 01:20:20,030
learning how to respect their 

1810
01:20:20,030 --> 01:20:22,500
difference and take a more frank 

1811
01:20:22,510 --> 01:20:24,190
attitude to dealing with this 

1812
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:26,630
difference in more factories . I think 

1813
01:20:27,910 --> 01:20:31,810
now that's that's great . So I think 

1814
01:20:31,810 --> 01:20:35,570
the US with partners and allies need 

1815
01:20:35,570 --> 01:20:39,040
to expand the availability of , 

1816
01:20:39,510 --> 01:20:42,330
I mean this is sort of in in my my 

1817
01:20:42,340 --> 01:20:44,507
space of things I've covered , we need 

1818
01:20:44,507 --> 01:20:46,840
to expand the availability of um you 

1819
01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:48,896
know , affordable infrastructure and 

1820
01:20:48,896 --> 01:20:51,062
digital infrastructure is an important 

1821
01:20:51,062 --> 01:20:53,229
part of that . There's a lot of really 

1822
01:20:53,229 --> 01:20:55,062
promising efforts that have been 

1823
01:20:55,062 --> 01:20:58,010
Announced just over the past year and a 

1824
01:20:58,010 --> 01:21:01,080
couple that go back a little bit longer 

1825
01:21:01,090 --> 01:21:04,630
uh several years um where the US is 

1826
01:21:04,630 --> 01:21:06,920
working with partners and allies . So 

1827
01:21:06,930 --> 01:21:09,097
you know , the build back better world 

1828
01:21:09,097 --> 01:21:11,152
partnership that was announced , the 

1829
01:21:11,152 --> 01:21:13,263
G-7 has digital infrastructure as one 

1830
01:21:13,263 --> 01:21:15,440
of its four pillars . Um I think we're 

1831
01:21:15,440 --> 01:21:17,662
going to hear more about that next year 

1832
01:21:17,662 --> 01:21:19,773
with some you know some announcements 

1833
01:21:19,773 --> 01:21:21,996
and some projects . Um you know the U . 

1834
01:21:21,996 --> 01:21:24,218
S . Is also working with the EU through 

1835
01:21:24,218 --> 01:21:26,162
the Trade and Technology Council , 

1836
01:21:26,162 --> 01:21:28,496
there's a working group that works on I . 

1837
01:21:28,496 --> 01:21:30,718
C . T . Issues . Um you know , you know 

1838
01:21:30,718 --> 01:21:32,440
the Quad has an infrastructure 

1839
01:21:32,440 --> 01:21:34,551
coordination group and it's also it's 

1840
01:21:34,551 --> 01:21:34,130
also working , you know , it's been 

1841
01:21:34,130 --> 01:21:36,352
working on technology principles , it's 

1842
01:21:36,352 --> 01:21:38,574
got a technology working group too . So 

1843
01:21:38,574 --> 01:21:40,840
we have these um I think really 

1844
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:44,730
promising efforts for allied 

1845
01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:48,460
cooperation um that you know I think 

1846
01:21:48,460 --> 01:21:52,440
are are helping to bridge um you know 

1847
01:21:52,450 --> 01:21:55,780
uh areas where we diverge and help 

1848
01:21:55,790 --> 01:21:57,800
hopefully marshal more resources , 

1849
01:21:57,800 --> 01:22:00,490
collective resources to expand the 

1850
01:22:00,490 --> 01:22:03,050
availability of affordable projects . 

1851
01:22:03,050 --> 01:22:05,620
And so there's a there's a lot of work 

1852
01:22:05,620 --> 01:22:07,731
though that needs to happen to really 

1853
01:22:07,731 --> 01:22:09,731
get the most out of those . Um It's 

1854
01:22:09,731 --> 01:22:11,787
really difficult to coordinate among 

1855
01:22:11,787 --> 01:22:13,570
different countries , all these 

1856
01:22:13,570 --> 01:22:15,681
different economic agencies . I think 

1857
01:22:15,681 --> 01:22:17,570
there's actually there's probably 

1858
01:22:17,570 --> 01:22:19,681
lessons that could be learned from um 

1859
01:22:19,681 --> 01:22:21,792
you know , some of the joint military 

1860
01:22:21,792 --> 01:22:23,959
operations in the history that is sort 

1861
01:22:23,959 --> 01:22:27,380
of the experience of um uh 

1862
01:22:27,390 --> 01:22:30,270
improving coordination among allied 

1863
01:22:30,270 --> 01:22:32,380
militaries that could be applied to 

1864
01:22:32,380 --> 01:22:34,436
help , you know improve coordination 

1865
01:22:34,436 --> 01:22:37,100
among economic agencies . So it's I'm 

1866
01:22:37,100 --> 01:22:38,822
really encouraged by all those 

1867
01:22:38,822 --> 01:22:40,933
developments . I just think there's a 

1868
01:22:40,933 --> 01:22:42,711
you know a lot we need to do to 

1869
01:22:42,711 --> 01:22:44,433
operationalize them well . And 

1870
01:22:44,433 --> 01:22:46,656
obviously you're you're speaking to the 

1871
01:22:46,656 --> 01:22:48,600
right group , you're talking about 

1872
01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:48,440
taking military lessons learned and 

1873
01:22:48,440 --> 01:22:50,620
applying applying them to uh you know 

1874
01:22:50,620 --> 01:22:52,731
other aspects of you know the U . S . 

1875
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:55,256
Government as well as our commercial 

1876
01:22:55,256 --> 01:22:57,367
sector . So any other thoughts things 

1877
01:22:57,367 --> 01:22:59,640
you want to hit on , tell people where 

1878
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:03,090
to buy your book etcetera . Yeah . At 

1879
01:23:03,090 --> 01:23:05,480
your local bookstore or amazon or 

1880
01:23:05,480 --> 01:23:07,647
Barnes and Noble any of those places . 

1881
01:23:07,647 --> 01:23:09,740
There's the hard copy . There's the 

1882
01:23:09,740 --> 01:23:12,410
audio version in the Kindle version . 

1883
01:23:12,410 --> 01:23:14,632
So whatever works for you and I welcome 

1884
01:23:14,632 --> 01:23:16,743
comments to people . If you pick up a 

1885
01:23:16,743 --> 01:23:18,799
copy let me know what you think . Um 

1886
01:23:18,799 --> 01:23:20,910
That's really one of the fun parts of 

1887
01:23:20,910 --> 01:23:23,021
writing is to to hear from people who 

1888
01:23:23,021 --> 01:23:25,021
engage with the material . Thanks . 

1889
01:23:25,021 --> 01:23:27,350
Great . Thanks Professor Sean . I know 

1890
01:23:27,350 --> 01:23:29,610
it's late for you . Any last comments 

1891
01:23:29,610 --> 01:23:31,610
or thoughts that you'd like to pass 

1892
01:23:31,610 --> 01:23:35,450
along I think no but in short 

1893
01:23:35,450 --> 01:23:38,420
is I wish in future Sino us 

1894
01:23:38,420 --> 01:23:40,476
relationship should come back to the 

1895
01:23:40,476 --> 01:23:42,642
normal ways as soon as possible . That 

1896
01:23:42,642 --> 01:23:45,630
would do benefit for both of us . I I 

1897
01:23:45,630 --> 01:23:47,852
agree wholeheartedly . And hopefully at 

1898
01:23:47,852 --> 01:23:49,908
some point in the future we won't be 

1899
01:23:49,908 --> 01:23:52,019
dealing with the bilateral issues and 

1900
01:23:52,019 --> 01:23:54,241
Covid issues and things like that . And 

1901
01:23:54,241 --> 01:23:56,408
we can get back to doing some of these 

1902
01:23:56,408 --> 01:24:00,360
things in person . So it's a until 

1903
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:03,500
next time . I appreciate those joining 

1904
01:24:03,500 --> 01:24:05,500
us early . That was joining us very 

1905
01:24:05,500 --> 01:24:08,020
late and everyone else that's that's 

1906
01:24:08,020 --> 01:24:09,853
watching . I think this has been 

1907
01:24:09,853 --> 01:24:11,631
another great webinar . We will 

1908
01:24:11,631 --> 01:24:13,853
continue this . We'll see you next year 

1909
01:24:13,853 --> 01:24:16,020
in the first quarter as we move on and 

1910
01:24:16,020 --> 01:24:18,390
to Jonathan and Professor Sun . I look 

1911
01:24:18,390 --> 01:24:20,890
forward to continuing the dialogue for 

1912
01:24:20,890 --> 01:24:22,946
now and in the future . So thank you 

1913
01:24:22,946 --> 01:24:25,168
very much for joining us . And everyone 

1914
01:24:25,168 --> 01:24:27,334
else have a great day . And this is US 

1915
01:24:27,334 --> 01:24:29,612
cassie signing off for now . Thank you . 

1916
01:24:29,612 --> 01:24:31,920
Thank you . Fine . Thank you .