WEBVTT 00:00.070 --> 00:02.237 The indo pacific visions podcast is an 00:02.237 --> 00:04.459 official product of the Journal of Indo 00:04.459 --> 00:07.250 pacific Affairs . The program fosters 00:07.260 --> 00:09.482 intellectual international discourse on 00:09.482 --> 00:11.649 a wide array of topics associated with 00:11.649 --> 00:13.649 the indo pacific region , including 00:13.649 --> 00:15.538 International relations , foreign 00:15.538 --> 00:17.649 policy , National security allies and 00:17.649 --> 00:19.780 partners , geo economics , military 00:19.780 --> 00:22.540 history and more . It envisions an 00:22.540 --> 00:24.707 inclusive indo pacific that spans from 00:24.707 --> 00:26.873 the west coasts of the Americas to the 00:26.873 --> 00:28.762 eastern shores of Africa and from 00:28.762 --> 00:30.873 Antarctica to the arctic and covering 00:30.873 --> 00:32.762 much of Asia and all of Oceania . 00:33.430 --> 00:36.180 Disclaimer . The views and opinions 00:36.180 --> 00:38.340 expressed or implied in this podcast 00:38.340 --> 00:40.562 are those of the authors and should not 00:40.562 --> 00:42.673 be construed as carrying the official 00:42.673 --> 00:44.784 sanction of the Department of Defense 00:44.784 --> 00:46.673 Department of the Air Force , Air 00:46.673 --> 00:48.618 Education and Training Command , a 00:48.618 --> 00:50.396 university or other agencies or 00:50.396 --> 00:52.507 departments of the U . S . Government 00:52.507 --> 00:54.618 or their international equivalents in 00:54.618 --> 00:57.070 this episode . Dr H . Laguna Seca 00:57.070 --> 00:59.260 Rockwell , assistant editor of the 00:59.260 --> 01:01.260 Journal of Indo pacific Affairs 01:01.290 --> 01:03.640 interviews . Hollie McKay , a writer , 01:03.650 --> 01:06.170 war crimes investigator and the author 01:06.170 --> 01:08.570 of Only Cry for the Living memos from 01:08.570 --> 01:11.920 inside the ISIS battlefield , jocko 01:11.920 --> 01:15.110 publishing slash Di Angelo Publications 01:15.120 --> 01:18.990 2021 McKay was an investigative 01:19.000 --> 01:21.000 and international affairs slash war 01:21.000 --> 01:23.600 correspondent for Fox News digital for 01:23.600 --> 01:26.320 more than 14 years where she focused on 01:26.320 --> 01:28.880 war terrorism and crimes against 01:28.880 --> 01:32.090 humanity . Holly has worked on the 01:32.090 --> 01:34.300 front lines of several major war zones 01:34.300 --> 01:36.522 and covered humanitarian and diplomatic 01:36.522 --> 01:39.960 crises in Ukraine , Iraq . Afghanistan 01:40.010 --> 01:43.830 Pakistan syria , Iran , Turkey , Yemen , 01:43.840 --> 01:47.190 Saudi Arabia burma Russia africa , 01:47.200 --> 01:49.490 latin America and other areas . 01:50.960 --> 01:52.793 This is the indo pacific visions 01:52.793 --> 01:53.440 podcast . 02:03.640 --> 02:05.760 Welcome to in the past week visions , 02:05.760 --> 02:07.816 the podcast of the journal of in the 02:07.816 --> 02:10.360 past week affairs . It is my privilege 02:10.360 --> 02:12.710 and honor to interview our guest holly 02:12.710 --> 02:15.330 McKay , a renowned combat journalist 02:15.340 --> 02:19.140 and scholar holly has been covering 02:19.140 --> 02:22.270 stories from war torn countries such as 02:22.280 --> 02:25.450 Afghanistan , Iran syria and of course 02:25.450 --> 02:29.240 the current situation in Ukraine . Here 02:29.240 --> 02:31.560 we are today with holly only , many 02:31.560 --> 02:34.370 thanks for being here and sparing us a 02:34.370 --> 02:36.280 bit of your valuable time for an 02:36.290 --> 02:38.820 interview . Thank you . Thank you for 02:38.820 --> 02:40.931 my lovely introductions and honest to 02:40.931 --> 02:43.750 be here . Very welcome to begin other 02:43.750 --> 02:46.320 interview . I would like our audience 02:46.320 --> 02:48.760 to know a little bit about you and your 02:48.760 --> 02:52.400 background . Is there a pivotal moment 02:52.410 --> 02:54.030 or I would say 02:55.540 --> 02:59.490 professional or personal epiphany that 02:59.500 --> 03:02.960 led to your decision to pursue such a 03:02.970 --> 03:06.100 dangerous profession ? Well , for me 03:06.100 --> 03:08.850 really , I grew up in North Queensland 03:08.850 --> 03:12.050 in Australia in some very remote towns 03:12.050 --> 03:15.100 and I I was training to be a ballerina . 03:15.100 --> 03:18.150 I never , I never really thought of 03:18.150 --> 03:20.650 pursuing a career in journalism , let 03:20.650 --> 03:23.250 alone war journalism , But I always 03:23.250 --> 03:26.720 loved to write and I loved to sort of 03:26.730 --> 03:28.830 create stories . I was always very 03:28.830 --> 03:31.020 curious about the world and that's one 03:31.020 --> 03:33.131 thing I think my ballet career really 03:33.131 --> 03:36.020 gave me was a deeper understanding of 03:36.020 --> 03:38.187 different cultures , different music , 03:38.187 --> 03:40.500 different choreographers , how 03:40.510 --> 03:42.399 different motivations and used to 03:42.399 --> 03:44.960 create these incredible artistic 03:44.960 --> 03:47.040 masterpieces . And so I was always a 03:47.040 --> 03:49.207 deeply curious person and I think that 03:49.207 --> 03:52.300 is the number one Tenant , you sort of 03:52.300 --> 03:54.390 have to have to pursue this . I 03:54.390 --> 03:56.612 unfortunately broke my ankle when I was 03:56.612 --> 03:58.740 18 . So that sort of sent me back to 03:58.740 --> 04:02.090 university and I wasn't really sure 04:02.090 --> 04:04.312 what I wanted to pursue . At that point 04:04.312 --> 04:06.930 I went to New York to finish my degree 04:06.930 --> 04:09.170 and randomly got an internship at Fox 04:09.170 --> 04:11.600 News when I was 20 and we offered to 04:11.600 --> 04:14.060 sponsor me at the end of it and I was 04:14.060 --> 04:16.720 in a real position . I remember feeling 04:17.000 --> 04:19.222 as though do I pursue this journalistic 04:19.222 --> 04:21.940 career or do I become a ballerina ? 04:21.940 --> 04:23.829 Still at that point my injury had 04:23.829 --> 04:25.980 healed but I decided it was such an 04:25.980 --> 04:27.700 incredible opportunity to get 04:27.700 --> 04:30.060 sponsorship to live in the US and I 04:30.070 --> 04:32.330 took that up and and ended up in 04:32.330 --> 04:34.640 Adelaide and it was really general 04:34.640 --> 04:36.862 assignments . I was covering everything 04:36.862 --> 04:39.280 from a courthouse to something 04:39.280 --> 04:42.830 investigative to an Oscars red carpet 04:42.830 --> 04:44.997 and this was in my early twenties . So 04:44.997 --> 04:47.052 it was really diverse . But I always 04:47.052 --> 04:49.330 felt , I think living somewhere like L . 04:49.330 --> 04:51.108 A . Where you are surrounded by 04:51.108 --> 04:53.390 Hollywood , you surrounded by a lot of 04:53.400 --> 04:55.670 superficial things . I always felt that 04:55.680 --> 04:57.791 I was on the outside looking in and I 04:57.791 --> 04:59.902 wanted to pursue something that was a 04:59.902 --> 05:02.060 little bit deeper . And so I studied 05:02.060 --> 05:04.580 different languages and traveled a lot 05:04.580 --> 05:07.830 and at that point it was the war was in 05:07.830 --> 05:11.600 Iraq were really in a in a hot zone and 05:11.600 --> 05:14.220 so I pushed my way to kind of get over 05:14.220 --> 05:16.590 there and really just fell in love with 05:16.590 --> 05:19.310 telling these stories in dark corners 05:19.310 --> 05:22.420 of the globe and as soon as I pursue 05:22.420 --> 05:24.710 that , I just couldn't have imagined 05:24.710 --> 05:27.860 doing anything else with my life . Just 05:27.860 --> 05:30.082 curious to know what other languages do 05:30.082 --> 05:32.630 you speak , I speak a little bit of 05:32.640 --> 05:34.696 like here there and everything , but 05:34.696 --> 05:36.918 nothing really greatly Arabic is what I 05:36.918 --> 05:39.820 speak the most of it . I need to brush 05:39.820 --> 05:42.430 up big time that I've lost a lot over 05:42.430 --> 05:44.200 the years , but it is really 05:44.215 --> 05:45.993 challenging , I'll say with the 05:45.993 --> 05:48.104 languages because it is very useful , 05:48.104 --> 05:50.159 but I also say to people who want to 05:50.159 --> 05:52.271 pursue this sort of career , it's not 05:52.271 --> 05:54.493 necessarily a necessity . I think a lot 05:54.493 --> 05:56.604 of people think you have to be fluent 05:56.604 --> 05:58.659 in X Y Z languages and I don't think 05:58.659 --> 06:00.755 that's always the case because every 06:00.755 --> 06:04.035 region has its own dialect and there's 06:04.035 --> 06:07.580 so much that you cannot really get your 06:07.580 --> 06:09.691 head around unless you're living in a 06:09.691 --> 06:11.691 place . So for me regardless , I'll 06:11.691 --> 06:13.540 always have a translator with me 06:13.540 --> 06:15.373 because I want to make sure that 06:15.373 --> 06:17.373 everything is translated absolutely 06:17.373 --> 06:19.318 accurately and that it is somebody 06:19.318 --> 06:21.373 that's local that can pick up on the 06:21.373 --> 06:23.429 different dialects and the different 06:23.429 --> 06:25.730 nuances . Yeah , I think when you walk 06:25.730 --> 06:28.450 into a country or you know another 06:28.460 --> 06:31.330 culture , if you speak at least like if 06:31.330 --> 06:33.610 you know how to say hello , you know , 06:33.610 --> 06:35.880 have a good day , thank you . People 06:35.880 --> 06:38.110 always appreciate that you don't have 06:38.110 --> 06:40.110 to be fluent . Like you said to win 06:40.110 --> 06:43.310 their , you know to get their home feel 06:43.320 --> 06:45.720 like the welcome , you know feeling and 06:45.720 --> 06:47.831 everything . If you know a little bit 06:47.831 --> 06:50.310 how to say hello or thank you , that 06:50.320 --> 06:52.860 could go a long ways , right ? Yeah , 06:52.870 --> 06:54.926 absolutely . Always say thank you is 06:54.926 --> 06:57.148 the most important word to learn in any 06:57.148 --> 06:59.148 language . If you're going to learn 06:59.148 --> 07:01.259 just one word in any country that you 07:01.259 --> 07:03.314 go to always make it thank you to me 07:03.314 --> 07:05.550 that is the most valuable word in every 07:05.550 --> 07:08.830 place that I go . Mm hmm . Yes . Uh I 07:08.830 --> 07:10.886 guess it's interesting starting as a 07:10.886 --> 07:13.250 ballerina and now you are serving 07:13.260 --> 07:15.149 everywhere basically , you know , 07:15.149 --> 07:18.220 reporting these stories I guess . Uh 07:18.230 --> 07:20.600 this is a perfect , perfect example of 07:20.610 --> 07:23.740 the old idiom that when one door closes 07:23.750 --> 07:26.550 another opens , right ? Absolutely . 07:26.550 --> 07:29.550 Yeah . I couldn't have imagined . It's 07:29.550 --> 07:31.439 funny because people always think 07:31.439 --> 07:33.717 they're such different careers and yes , 07:33.717 --> 07:35.883 they are on the surface . But I always 07:35.883 --> 07:38.106 credit my ballet teachings to it taught 07:38.106 --> 07:40.328 me everything . I know , as I said , it 07:40.328 --> 07:42.106 gave me discipline , it gave me 07:42.106 --> 07:44.670 curiosity , It gave me an opportunity 07:44.670 --> 07:48.510 to travel . Um and so yeah , my ballet 07:48.510 --> 07:50.950 career really was my firm teaching 07:50.950 --> 07:52.894 ground to set me up for my current 07:52.894 --> 07:55.630 location . Yeah , unique . Well , 07:55.640 --> 07:58.700 moving to our next question , paul is 07:58.700 --> 08:00.790 an author , journalist , war 08:00.790 --> 08:04.650 correspondent and humanitarian . And 08:04.650 --> 08:06.650 when the Ukraine was started at the 08:06.650 --> 08:09.070 beginning of this year , she packed her 08:09.070 --> 08:11.830 bag and flew to Ukraine , she has 08:11.840 --> 08:14.062 experienced the ugly side of the wall . 08:14.062 --> 08:17.310 First hand there , can you tell us a 08:17.310 --> 08:19.760 little bit about what you saw while you 08:19.760 --> 08:22.810 were there ? So I went to Ukraine at 08:22.810 --> 08:26.440 the end of january . So this was , gosh , 08:26.450 --> 08:28.780 it was yeah , a month before or mr Mark 08:28.790 --> 08:31.012 before the invasion actually happened . 08:31.012 --> 08:33.123 Um and I was doing some other work in 08:33.123 --> 08:35.068 europe at the time and things were 08:35.068 --> 08:36.957 heating up in the news about this 08:36.957 --> 08:39.530 possible invasion . So I thought now is 08:39.530 --> 08:41.641 the time to go and to understand what 08:41.641 --> 08:43.752 was happening . And I traveled to the 08:43.752 --> 08:45.974 east into Donbas region at that point , 08:45.974 --> 08:48.197 because that was already where a lot of 08:48.197 --> 08:50.363 the conflict was already happening and 08:50.363 --> 08:52.480 that had been happening since 2014 . 08:52.490 --> 08:56.080 And so that sort of gave me I think a 08:56.090 --> 08:58.146 rich underst standing of kind of the 08:58.146 --> 09:01.080 dynamic of this very kinetic war . But 09:01.080 --> 09:02.969 then you go back to Kiev and it's 09:02.969 --> 09:05.220 beautiful and snowy and peaceful and 09:05.220 --> 09:07.331 there's lots of cafes and restaurants 09:07.331 --> 09:09.164 and I was meeting with different 09:09.164 --> 09:11.276 government officials really trying to 09:11.276 --> 09:13.331 understand what was happening and it 09:13.331 --> 09:15.498 sort of as the weeks went on , it felt 09:15.498 --> 09:17.609 like surely Russia is not going to do 09:17.609 --> 09:19.831 that . Surely they're not that stupid . 09:19.831 --> 09:21.887 And I really had a lot of doubt that 09:21.887 --> 09:24.109 the invasion was even going to happen . 09:24.109 --> 09:26.164 And so when it did , it sort of came 09:26.164 --> 09:28.800 with an enormous shock . And at that 09:28.800 --> 09:31.320 point I was sort of doing some refugee 09:31.320 --> 09:33.542 work up near the Hungarian border . And 09:33.542 --> 09:36.020 so I had to find my way back . And that 09:36.020 --> 09:38.340 was very surreal in the first couple of 09:38.340 --> 09:40.562 days of the invasion , because you have 09:40.562 --> 09:42.673 this entire country that was suddenly 09:42.673 --> 09:44.951 gone into war mode . Um , and you know , 09:44.951 --> 09:47.118 everybody could have kept telling me , 09:47.118 --> 09:49.229 oh , you can't go back to Kiev , it's 09:49.229 --> 09:51.284 surrounded by the Russians . And yet 09:51.284 --> 09:53.562 when I was talking to the locals there , 09:53.562 --> 09:55.562 like , no , we'll get you in , it's 09:55.562 --> 09:57.729 fine , you know , it's um , so we sort 09:57.729 --> 09:57.360 of traveled through the night in these 09:57.360 --> 10:00.120 back roads and , you know , just that 10:00.130 --> 10:03.860 they're really showed me how 10:03.860 --> 10:06.140 misinformed or how a lot of the 10:06.140 --> 10:08.084 information that was already being 10:08.084 --> 10:10.196 perpetrated in the media was just not 10:10.196 --> 10:12.418 correct . You know , that being example 10:12.418 --> 10:14.584 was absolutely surrounded , you cannot 10:14.584 --> 10:16.696 get in and and me being on the ground 10:16.696 --> 10:18.807 going well , I just did . Um , so the 10:18.807 --> 10:20.751 first week , two weeks were really 10:20.751 --> 10:23.100 challenging , I think for me , 10:23.100 --> 10:25.650 professionally working alone , there's 10:25.650 --> 10:27.706 obviously a lot of great benefits to 10:27.706 --> 10:29.706 being an independent journalist and 10:29.706 --> 10:31.761 being a writer and not having to lug 10:31.761 --> 10:33.761 around cameras and brews and things 10:33.761 --> 10:35.872 because you can maneuver around . But 10:35.872 --> 10:37.817 in this circumstance is I found it 10:37.817 --> 10:41.370 really difficult because , um , I did 10:41.370 --> 10:43.481 feel very alone and even though I had 10:43.481 --> 10:46.550 good sources and Ukrainian friends , um , 10:46.560 --> 10:49.820 it was hard to just get basic transport 10:49.820 --> 10:51.970 to get from A to B . Um , you know , 10:51.970 --> 10:54.081 every night you're going to bed under 10:54.081 --> 10:56.192 the soundtrack of artillery and bombs 10:56.192 --> 11:00.000 exploding . And so it is a it is a very , 11:01.530 --> 11:03.370 it's a very , I wouldn't say 11:03.370 --> 11:05.592 frightening , but you certainly on edge 11:05.592 --> 11:07.660 the entire time and the bomb sirens 11:07.660 --> 11:10.330 going off and you know , something that 11:10.330 --> 11:12.441 was very surreal because it felt very 11:12.441 --> 11:15.400 much like you were living in World War 11:15.400 --> 11:17.890 Two to some degree and and the entire 11:17.890 --> 11:20.010 city being shut down and checkpoints 11:20.010 --> 11:23.380 erected everywhere . And it was at that 11:23.380 --> 11:25.269 particular the point right in the 11:25.269 --> 11:26.936 beginning , there were so few 11:26.936 --> 11:28.824 journalists in Kiev , majority of 11:28.824 --> 11:30.991 journalists were further up north near 11:30.991 --> 11:32.936 the Poland border and levied where 11:32.936 --> 11:35.047 there wasn't a huge amount of sort of 11:35.047 --> 11:37.102 conflict happening . And so Kiev was 11:37.102 --> 11:39.324 sort of at that point , that's what the 11:39.324 --> 11:38.590 Russians were targeting and trying to 11:38.590 --> 11:41.730 get to . So you had this sort of sense 11:41.730 --> 11:43.952 of nervousness and it was just , it was 11:43.952 --> 11:46.950 very difficult to operate in . And I I 11:46.950 --> 11:49.270 certainly learned a lot , but I did 11:49.270 --> 11:51.690 find compared to other places that I've 11:51.690 --> 11:54.700 worked previously , I did find , you 11:54.700 --> 11:56.867 know , being in Ukraine in those early 11:56.867 --> 11:59.190 days to be just incredibly difficult 11:59.200 --> 12:01.311 personally and professionally because 12:01.311 --> 12:03.422 you're dealing with just , you know , 12:03.422 --> 12:05.478 population that's incredibly shocked 12:05.478 --> 12:09.060 and traumatized at the same time , the 12:09.070 --> 12:11.490 war is is everywhere . And it was , it 12:11.490 --> 12:15.150 was very real . Mhm . This was not your 12:15.150 --> 12:18.170 first visit to Ukraine . Right . No , 12:18.170 --> 12:20.059 I've been to Ukraine a little bit 12:20.059 --> 12:21.781 before , not a lot , but I was 12:21.781 --> 12:23.680 fortunate that I had because that 12:23.690 --> 12:26.080 previously it enabled me to have 12:26.090 --> 12:28.530 relationships on the ground , so have 12:28.530 --> 12:30.752 friends that were in government friends 12:30.752 --> 12:33.330 that worked for Ngos friends that 12:33.340 --> 12:35.700 worked in different capacities and I 12:35.700 --> 12:37.867 was very grateful to that because when 12:37.867 --> 12:39.978 I was there , when the war happened I 12:39.978 --> 12:41.867 was able to lean on some of these 12:41.867 --> 12:43.922 sources and connect actions and have 12:43.922 --> 12:46.033 people connect me to so and so and so 12:46.033 --> 12:48.256 and so and I was very grateful for that 12:48.256 --> 12:50.367 because I think if I was a journalist 12:50.367 --> 12:52.422 who was suddenly coming in after the 12:52.422 --> 12:54.533 invasion with no prior experience and 12:54.533 --> 12:56.589 the reason that would have been just 12:56.589 --> 12:58.811 the wrong circumstance to have tried to 12:58.811 --> 13:00.922 forge a lot of those connections . So 13:00.922 --> 13:03.780 so yeah I was grateful to have friends 13:03.780 --> 13:06.710 on the ground . How does the situation 13:06.710 --> 13:09.120 compared to your previous visits and 13:09.120 --> 13:12.130 how do you see the situation evolving 13:12.130 --> 13:14.430 in the near future ? Yeah , I think 13:14.440 --> 13:16.780 obviously you know keith was an 13:16.780 --> 13:19.130 incredibly bustling city as I mentioned 13:19.130 --> 13:22.750 it full of life , you know a really big 13:22.750 --> 13:25.680 tech hub , amazing restaurants , 13:25.680 --> 13:28.050 amazing nightlife , beautiful 13:28.050 --> 13:30.985 architecture and then see that sort of 13:30.985 --> 13:33.041 drastically transformed into a place 13:33.041 --> 13:35.225 that was under curfew to a place that 13:35.225 --> 13:38.355 you know every every few yards you're 13:38.355 --> 13:40.985 dealing with a military checkpoint and 13:40.995 --> 13:43.905 so that was it was very surreal to be 13:43.905 --> 13:46.072 honest , just how drastically life can 13:46.072 --> 13:47.961 change . But what was also really 13:47.961 --> 13:50.750 surreal to me was how , how quickly 13:50.750 --> 13:52.806 people can adapt to war . You know , 13:52.806 --> 13:55.530 how quickly Ukrainians were able to go 13:55.530 --> 13:58.360 from living very normal , very positive 13:58.360 --> 14:01.230 lives to suddenly being under curfew , 14:01.230 --> 14:04.270 to suddenly living under fire to 14:04.270 --> 14:06.381 suddenly being told that you can only 14:06.381 --> 14:08.730 go to this grocery store and in this 14:08.730 --> 14:10.880 period of time on this day . And when 14:10.880 --> 14:12.936 you go there , the shelves have been 14:12.936 --> 14:15.047 already worked there where you can no 14:15.047 --> 14:17.269 longer go to an ATM just all the little 14:17.269 --> 14:19.436 nuances that come with suddenly living 14:19.436 --> 14:21.535 under war . And I think that's an 14:21.535 --> 14:23.985 incredible , incredible thing that I 14:23.985 --> 14:26.152 find not just in Ukraine , but in many 14:26.152 --> 14:28.955 places , just how quickly the human 14:29.175 --> 14:31.008 spirit can sort of adapt to this 14:31.008 --> 14:34.445 dramatic shift and it certainly was in 14:34.445 --> 14:38.095 terms of the future . I see , 14:38.880 --> 14:40.769 I see the conflict in the east is 14:40.769 --> 14:42.880 obviously expanded and I can see that 14:42.880 --> 14:45.090 probably going for quite some time and 14:45.090 --> 14:47.310 it already has been going since 2014 . 14:47.310 --> 14:50.740 But right now the Ukrainians are 14:50.750 --> 14:53.330 giving an incredible fight back . The 14:53.340 --> 14:56.180 Russians are continuing with their 14:56.180 --> 14:58.291 objective . The Kremlin is continuing 14:58.291 --> 15:01.180 to to want to take as much of the east 15:01.180 --> 15:03.291 as possible . It seems as though they 15:03.291 --> 15:05.291 have given up on taking key , which 15:05.291 --> 15:07.291 seems to be the initial goal was to 15:07.291 --> 15:10.200 take over the capitol and whatever , do 15:10.200 --> 15:11.922 whatever it took to get rid of 15:11.922 --> 15:14.033 President Zelensky , which definitely 15:14.033 --> 15:16.200 has not happened , but I do see this , 15:16.200 --> 15:18.200 unfortunately playing out for quite 15:18.200 --> 15:20.422 some time . I think much of the rest of 15:20.422 --> 15:22.589 the country to a large degree has gone 15:22.589 --> 15:24.865 back to normal and hopefully it stays 15:24.865 --> 15:28.605 that way . And it just seems to me that 15:28.615 --> 15:30.226 most of the conflict will be 15:30.226 --> 15:32.282 concentrated in the east and what we 15:32.282 --> 15:34.504 can also see if the Ukrainians start to 15:34.504 --> 15:36.615 launch offensive to take back some of 15:36.615 --> 15:38.893 the territory that was taken from them . 15:38.893 --> 15:41.650 So that on that level that also could 15:41.650 --> 15:43.817 increase just the sort of the level of 15:43.817 --> 15:45.872 violence that we see on the ground . 15:45.872 --> 15:48.039 Are you planning to go back there ? So 15:48.039 --> 15:49.983 I am I am I have a couple of other 15:49.983 --> 15:52.400 trips coming up um sort of over the 15:52.400 --> 15:55.060 next month and then I think Ukraine 15:55.060 --> 15:57.420 would like to go back to in the early 15:57.420 --> 15:59.450 mid fall . I think it's always 15:59.460 --> 16:01.516 interesting as the weather starts to 16:01.516 --> 16:03.738 pull down , that's when you tend to see 16:03.738 --> 16:05.990 a spike in in conflict . And that's 16:05.990 --> 16:08.046 sort of where the ground hardens and 16:08.046 --> 16:10.770 the tanks can sort of roll more easily 16:10.780 --> 16:13.390 across different areas . So I think 16:13.390 --> 16:16.680 that is going to be an interesting time 16:16.680 --> 16:20.680 to head back there . Yeah . Well uh 16:20.690 --> 16:23.060 switching gears to your experience in 16:23.060 --> 16:26.230 Afghanistan , we see the deplorable 16:26.230 --> 16:29.220 situation women face under taliban rule 16:29.410 --> 16:32.760 both before and after the U . S . 16:32.800 --> 16:36.660 Endeavors of the past few decades you 16:36.660 --> 16:38.780 were operating in country among 16:38.780 --> 16:41.470 communities with some of these mindsets , 16:42.090 --> 16:45.090 how were you able to do your work under 16:45.680 --> 16:49.400 such conditions . I think 16:49.410 --> 16:52.820 I have a deep love for Afghanistan . I 16:52.830 --> 16:55.770 went there before the fall , actually 16:55.770 --> 16:57.326 happened with an Australian 16:57.326 --> 16:59.840 photographer friend of mine , jake and 16:59.850 --> 17:02.090 we thought we'd be going to sort of 17:02.090 --> 17:04.312 document that final month of the United 17:04.312 --> 17:07.540 States in the country and then The , 17:07.550 --> 17:09.700 the Afghan government standing on its 17:09.700 --> 17:11.867 own two ft or not . I think none of us 17:11.867 --> 17:14.680 could have assumed that the country 17:14.680 --> 17:16.791 would fall so quickly and and that it 17:16.791 --> 17:18.902 would happen before the United States 17:18.902 --> 17:21.124 had even left . So that was certainly a 17:21.124 --> 17:23.124 sort of a frightening experience in 17:23.124 --> 17:25.580 itself . But I felt very determined 17:25.580 --> 17:27.870 when I was seeing the journalists and 17:27.870 --> 17:30.030 the American journalists all leaving 17:30.030 --> 17:33.220 that , that I was going to stay , and 17:33.220 --> 17:36.030 that you know , me jumping on a plane 17:36.510 --> 17:39.190 and and leaving the country at that 17:39.190 --> 17:41.190 point when I felt that was what the 17:41.190 --> 17:43.357 country needed were journalists on the 17:43.357 --> 17:45.357 ground to document exactly what was 17:45.357 --> 17:47.523 happening . And that's something I was 17:47.523 --> 17:49.468 determined to do . And I knew that 17:49.468 --> 17:51.579 whatever it took , I would find a way 17:51.579 --> 17:54.220 out whenever I needed to get out . So , 17:54.230 --> 17:56.820 um that was that was a decision that I 17:56.820 --> 17:59.450 felt very strongly about . And you know , 17:59.450 --> 18:02.150 quite frankly , I , you take each day 18:02.150 --> 18:04.372 as it comes , I was fortunate enough to 18:04.372 --> 18:06.594 work with an incredible fixer names and 18:06.594 --> 18:09.390 has become a very dear friend of mine 18:09.590 --> 18:12.420 and he fixed it is somebody who who 18:12.430 --> 18:14.486 sort of helps journalists in foreign 18:14.486 --> 18:16.210 countries and in difficult 18:16.210 --> 18:18.440 circumstances to help them set up 18:18.440 --> 18:21.500 meetings , help with translation and 18:21.500 --> 18:23.278 kind of be a you know sort of a 18:23.278 --> 18:26.630 producer to some degree . Um So I was 18:26.630 --> 18:28.797 fortunate enough to open a weed and so 18:28.797 --> 18:31.019 we would always kind of discuss certain 18:31.019 --> 18:33.074 stories and discuss certain security 18:33.074 --> 18:36.790 situations . But I didn't you know I I 18:36.790 --> 18:39.110 wasn't trying to operate in secret . Um 18:39.120 --> 18:41.287 Taliban was very much aware that I was 18:41.287 --> 18:43.509 there . They had given the media office 18:43.509 --> 18:46.020 had given me a permission less recipe 18:46.020 --> 18:48.430 there and then I was able to just kind 18:48.430 --> 18:51.120 of go about doing my business fairly . 18:51.130 --> 18:54.450 Um You know it's a challenge when 18:54.460 --> 18:56.630 you're working with a group that is 18:56.630 --> 18:58.852 suddenly in government that hasn't been 18:58.852 --> 19:00.908 in government a very long time . And 19:00.908 --> 19:03.130 they're not quite sure how to deal with 19:03.130 --> 19:05.186 the modern world of journalism . But 19:05.186 --> 19:07.297 you just get through it . And I think 19:07.297 --> 19:09.510 that journalism there right now is an 19:09.510 --> 19:12.100 incredibly important and for locals 19:12.100 --> 19:13.933 it's you know it's an incredibly 19:13.933 --> 19:17.400 dangerous vocation because they 19:17.410 --> 19:19.970 are under a lot of threats from the 19:19.970 --> 19:23.030 Taliban . And I think as foreign we can 19:23.030 --> 19:25.086 help to sort of support them because 19:25.086 --> 19:27.197 there are certain liberties . I think 19:27.197 --> 19:29.419 that we can take that locals can't . So 19:29.419 --> 19:31.530 I think it's a it's important to have 19:31.530 --> 19:33.641 both locals and foreigners doing this 19:33.641 --> 19:35.586 sort of work . Exactly yeah . Give 19:35.586 --> 19:38.390 another proximity to the one year 19:38.390 --> 19:40.501 anniversary of the U . S . Withdrawal 19:40.501 --> 19:43.270 from Afghanistan ? What is the future 19:43.270 --> 19:46.370 hold for Afghanistan And what are the 19:46.370 --> 19:49.950 Washington do differently to help the 19:49.960 --> 19:52.200 situation there ? I think it's really 19:52.200 --> 19:55.380 bleak . Obviously at the moment we can 19:55.380 --> 19:57.980 look at just the horrible humanitarian 19:57.980 --> 20:00.970 situation . I think given that you have 20:00.970 --> 20:03.081 more than 80% of the country that was 20:03.081 --> 20:05.420 employed somehow in the war economy 20:05.420 --> 20:08.240 where whether that is through the US 20:08.240 --> 20:10.073 backed government , whether it's 20:10.073 --> 20:12.296 through an NGO or a contractor , but in 20:12.296 --> 20:14.610 any case essentially their salary is 20:14.610 --> 20:16.499 being paid by the U . S . And its 20:16.499 --> 20:18.900 allies , the tax dollars . And so when 20:18.900 --> 20:21.020 you have that literally stripped away 20:21.020 --> 20:23.131 overnight the moment the taliban came 20:23.131 --> 20:25.020 in all that all those assets were 20:25.020 --> 20:27.070 frozen . And so suddenly of course 20:27.070 --> 20:28.737 there's going to be a massive 20:28.737 --> 20:30.903 humanitarian crisis where people can't 20:30.903 --> 20:32.959 access their money . The jobs are no 20:32.959 --> 20:35.070 longer really there . And then on top 20:35.070 --> 20:37.070 of that you no longer have the Ngos 20:37.070 --> 20:39.181 operating . So you no longer have the 20:39.181 --> 20:41.292 medical facilities . And so it's just 20:41.292 --> 20:43.126 sort of one thing that compounds 20:43.126 --> 20:45.403 another . And unfortunately , you know , 20:45.403 --> 20:47.514 it still isn't pretty bleak stalemate 20:47.514 --> 20:49.737 that I think will only just continue to 20:49.737 --> 20:51.903 decline in the weeks and the months to 20:51.903 --> 20:53.848 come . I mean don't get me wrong , 20:53.848 --> 20:56.070 Afghanistan has always been a very poor 20:56.070 --> 20:58.530 place but it really is a very unique 20:58.530 --> 21:00.530 situation now where people are just 21:00.530 --> 21:02.990 struggling day by day to get by and 21:03.020 --> 21:06.930 they're no longer you know when you're 21:06.930 --> 21:09.097 in poverty like that . I mean you have 21:09.097 --> 21:10.930 little choice but to be pretty a 21:10.930 --> 21:12.874 political , they just want to feed 21:12.874 --> 21:15.041 their families , they just want to put 21:15.041 --> 21:15.000 bread on the table . And that is 21:15.000 --> 21:17.111 increasingly hard for a lot of afghan 21:17.111 --> 21:18.944 families . And so I think that's 21:18.944 --> 21:21.056 something the U . S . Really needs to 21:21.056 --> 21:23.111 look at . Unfortunately what I see a 21:23.111 --> 21:25.222 lot of is is Washington really having 21:25.222 --> 21:28.720 wiped its hands of Afghanistan and sort 21:28.720 --> 21:30.942 of wishing that that it would just kind 21:30.942 --> 21:33.164 of go away and sweep it under the rug . 21:33.164 --> 21:34.887 And the truth is that it's not 21:34.887 --> 21:37.053 Afghanistan in large part , you know , 21:37.053 --> 21:39.109 we do have a large responsibility to 21:39.109 --> 21:41.960 the Afghan people . There are ways that 21:41.970 --> 21:45.210 funds and and help can be issued to 21:45.210 --> 21:47.580 afghans without sort of directly giving 21:47.580 --> 21:51.260 money to the Taliban . But I also 21:51.270 --> 21:55.110 see uh I see the US 21:55.120 --> 21:57.287 not sort of stepping up to the plate . 21:57.287 --> 21:59.287 And I think that is a that is a big 21:59.287 --> 22:02.770 shame because as I said , we do our the 22:02.770 --> 22:06.250 afghan people something in return for 22:06.460 --> 22:08.410 believing even though leaving was 22:08.410 --> 22:10.650 inevitable . I do think the biggest 22:10.650 --> 22:12.680 mistake that was made was the US 22:12.690 --> 22:15.190 enabling so much corruption to happen . 22:15.200 --> 22:17.256 Um and really turning a blind eye to 22:17.256 --> 22:19.478 the high levels of corruption that were 22:19.478 --> 22:21.422 happening really on every level of 22:21.422 --> 22:23.480 government . And so I think in turn 22:23.480 --> 22:25.424 that that played a big role in the 22:25.424 --> 22:27.369 taliban's ability to come back the 22:27.369 --> 22:29.424 institutions were weakened the money 22:29.424 --> 22:31.258 that wasn't there , The soldiers 22:31.258 --> 22:33.202 weren't there that were written on 22:33.202 --> 22:36.390 paper . And and I think that the U . S . 22:36.390 --> 22:38.501 Is very well aware of that for a long 22:38.501 --> 22:41.210 time and chose to view it as a systemic 22:41.210 --> 22:43.520 problem rather than being a root cause . 22:44.150 --> 22:46.950 Yes I remember you mentioned something 22:46.950 --> 22:49.610 about the Rolex Watch somewhere . Oh 22:49.610 --> 22:53.590 yeah I mean there's been my my you know 22:53.590 --> 22:56.120 and been my great for years and I would 22:56.120 --> 22:58.440 talk to these Afghan officials and they 22:58.440 --> 23:00.662 would complain about this this and this 23:00.662 --> 23:02.773 and that sort of look down and they'd 23:02.773 --> 23:04.773 be wearing these Rolex watches that 23:04.773 --> 23:07.030 they brought in to buy and and it's 23:07.030 --> 23:09.086 just you know frustrating me . And I 23:09.086 --> 23:11.650 would say that that is that was our 23:11.650 --> 23:13.872 money that was U . S . Tax dollars that 23:13.872 --> 23:15.983 went to this that that money what the 23:15.983 --> 23:18.150 Rolex was supposed to go to the Afghan 23:18.150 --> 23:20.330 people and it didn't you stole that 23:20.330 --> 23:22.497 money and yet there was never any sort 23:22.497 --> 23:24.608 of real accountability behind it . So 23:24.610 --> 23:27.660 um you know I think after a while if 23:27.660 --> 23:30.110 you're a poor afghan farmer and you're 23:30.110 --> 23:33.190 trying to just get by and you have a 23:33.200 --> 23:36.190 policeman that's making you pay a bribe 23:36.190 --> 23:38.357 to get through the checkpoint each day 23:38.357 --> 23:40.357 eventually you're going to be angry 23:40.357 --> 23:42.412 enough to want to fight against them 23:42.412 --> 23:44.412 and you may not agree ideologically 23:44.412 --> 23:46.468 with the taliban . But after a while 23:46.468 --> 23:48.579 you're just going to get sick of your 23:48.579 --> 23:50.468 own government enough that you're 23:50.468 --> 23:52.246 willing to do whatever it takes 23:52.246 --> 23:54.412 including joining the taliban in order 23:54.412 --> 23:56.412 to see some sort of justice . And I 23:56.412 --> 23:58.640 think that's an uncomfortable an 23:58.640 --> 24:00.807 uncomfortable point that really has to 24:00.807 --> 24:03.029 be acknowledged and we see that just in 24:03.029 --> 24:05.029 so many countries . Exactly , I was 24:05.029 --> 24:07.084 born and raised in Sri Lanka and I'm 24:07.084 --> 24:09.251 sure you are there what's happening in 24:09.251 --> 24:12.240 Sri Lanka now . So I think sri Lanka , 24:12.240 --> 24:14.240 sri Lankan's are going through very 24:14.240 --> 24:17.180 similar you know , experiencing the 24:17.180 --> 24:19.940 same . I think sometimes 24:19.940 --> 24:23.630 politicians they play the role 24:23.640 --> 24:26.270 and the people below them . Non 24:26.270 --> 24:28.940 politicians , they kind of I think they 24:28.940 --> 24:31.910 get used to that type type of lifestyle 24:32.000 --> 24:34.770 and become and if you're not if you're 24:34.770 --> 24:36.992 not doing it you're missing out because 24:36.992 --> 24:39.214 everyone else is getting away with it . 24:39.214 --> 24:41.548 Exactly . And that becomes their normal . 24:41.560 --> 24:43.830 Yeah it's really unfortunate and that 24:43.830 --> 24:46.570 to me is really the biggest biggest 24:46.570 --> 24:48.514 thing that has to change in in any 24:48.514 --> 24:50.459 country that the U . S . Is giving 24:50.459 --> 24:52.860 foreign aid to or going into or 24:52.860 --> 24:55.027 whatever it is . If you're not willing 24:55.027 --> 24:56.860 to address the corruption that's 24:56.860 --> 24:59.027 happening and you're you're willing to 24:59.027 --> 25:01.138 flood the country with money then you 25:01.138 --> 25:02.916 know , you're basically setting 25:02.916 --> 25:04.971 ourselves up for failure and setting 25:04.971 --> 25:06.916 the people of that country and for 25:06.916 --> 25:09.630 failure . Yes . Moving to the next 25:09.630 --> 25:12.840 question , you have seen the face of 25:12.850 --> 25:15.420 all the face of evil and face of 25:15.430 --> 25:19.420 darkness up close and personal having 25:19.420 --> 25:22.830 stared into that phase where do you see 25:22.840 --> 25:25.570 and find hope , How do you continue to 25:25.570 --> 25:29.070 find a silver lining ? Yeah . You know , 25:29.070 --> 25:31.126 some days are harder than others . I 25:31.126 --> 25:34.170 think , I think I have the more 25:34.180 --> 25:37.150 experience that I have in this job in 25:37.150 --> 25:40.400 some ways , the more coping skills you 25:40.400 --> 25:42.430 develop in in sort of being able to 25:42.430 --> 25:46.330 deal with situations . Um but 25:46.330 --> 25:49.050 I also also at the same time very much 25:49.050 --> 25:52.270 believe in coming from a 25:52.280 --> 25:55.020 very , very strong place of empathy and 25:55.020 --> 25:57.076 compassion . I think they used to be 25:57.076 --> 25:59.242 this mentality and more reporting that 25:59.242 --> 26:01.610 you had to be extremely stoic and 26:01.610 --> 26:03.880 extremely distance from the subject and 26:03.890 --> 26:05.890 you couldn't show emotion and there 26:05.890 --> 26:08.057 were sort of all these unwritten rules 26:08.057 --> 26:10.168 about it . But I think that narrative 26:10.168 --> 26:12.057 is shifting and I think as we see 26:12.057 --> 26:14.390 especially more women in the profession , 26:14.390 --> 26:14.290 we are getting back to a little bit 26:14.290 --> 26:16.512 more of that very sort of compassionate 26:16.512 --> 26:18.568 storytelling and I think in this day 26:18.568 --> 26:20.734 and age , that's what people want . So 26:20.734 --> 26:22.957 it always is this very fine line for me 26:22.957 --> 26:25.068 of wanting to be very present with my 26:25.068 --> 26:26.901 subject and wanting to feel what 26:26.901 --> 26:29.240 they're feeling and walking through 26:29.240 --> 26:31.351 that with them at the same time , you 26:31.351 --> 26:33.462 have to have a certain degree of self 26:33.462 --> 26:35.630 protection and that you can't take on 26:35.640 --> 26:37.770 everything . And so it is a constant 26:37.770 --> 26:39.881 sort of internal battle that you have 26:39.881 --> 26:41.992 to find your own equilibrium with and 26:41.992 --> 26:45.030 that's um that's been something of a 26:45.030 --> 26:47.270 struggle for me over time , but I think 26:47.330 --> 26:50.390 really you have to keep in mind coming 26:50.390 --> 26:52.940 back to my normal life in the United 26:52.940 --> 26:55.890 States , it's really important to have 26:55.900 --> 26:58.011 a support system . And I think for so 26:58.011 --> 27:00.910 long to I wasn't great about having a 27:00.910 --> 27:03.590 really strong support system in terms 27:03.590 --> 27:06.170 of family , personal life , friends , 27:06.180 --> 27:08.540 and I think those things as I've gotten 27:08.540 --> 27:10.207 older , something that's just 27:10.207 --> 27:12.700 absolutely invaluable to me to have 27:12.710 --> 27:14.821 those things and to be able to go out 27:14.821 --> 27:16.932 and do fun things and enjoy your life 27:16.932 --> 27:19.154 and appreciate the fact that you get to 27:19.154 --> 27:22.240 live this beautiful and safe life here 27:22.240 --> 27:24.500 when you're not because so many people 27:24.510 --> 27:26.510 would love to be in your shoes , so 27:26.510 --> 27:28.621 many people would want to leave their 27:28.621 --> 27:30.677 country then unable to and there's a 27:30.677 --> 27:32.843 certain level of guilt that comes with 27:32.843 --> 27:35.010 that , but at the same time , I do try 27:35.010 --> 27:37.232 to really appreciate that . And I don't 27:37.232 --> 27:39.454 think it does anyone any favors to self 27:39.454 --> 27:41.232 allegedly or to constantly beat 27:41.232 --> 27:43.454 yourself up about things that you can't 27:43.454 --> 27:45.343 change . And so for me , I had to 27:45.343 --> 27:47.510 really reconcile with the idea that my 27:47.510 --> 27:50.470 job as a journalist is to be a vessel 27:50.470 --> 27:52.930 to tell these stories . I can't change 27:52.930 --> 27:55.830 policy . I can't , you know , 27:55.840 --> 27:59.670 change necessarily save the family . 27:59.670 --> 28:01.840 But what I can do is I can tell their 28:01.840 --> 28:04.500 story and hope that someone in a 28:04.500 --> 28:07.720 position of power will see that and and 28:07.730 --> 28:10.760 and do something that can make positive 28:10.760 --> 28:13.180 change . And I think um as journalists , 28:13.180 --> 28:15.236 it's really important not to sort of 28:15.236 --> 28:17.458 take on this great hubris of needing to 28:17.458 --> 28:19.620 change the world , all we can do is 28:19.620 --> 28:23.110 tell a story and so I am very cognizant 28:23.110 --> 28:25.332 of that whenever I'm going into a place 28:25.332 --> 28:27.443 and if I , if I feel that I'm getting 28:27.443 --> 28:30.460 sort of request that outside what I can 28:30.460 --> 28:32.970 offer , I just have to be very honest 28:32.970 --> 28:35.137 and say that that is not what I can do 28:35.137 --> 28:37.980 for you . What I can do for you is try 28:37.980 --> 28:39.813 to tell people what is happening 28:39.830 --> 28:41.810 exactly , yeah , what do you do to 28:41.810 --> 28:45.530 distress and recenter ? But I just just , 28:45.540 --> 28:48.560 I am a big runner , so I run a lot , 28:48.570 --> 28:51.080 usually try to twice a day and good 28:51.080 --> 28:53.290 weather , definitely always in the 28:53.290 --> 28:55.710 morning and if I'm not running I will 28:55.710 --> 28:57.960 be at the gym . So being active is 28:57.960 --> 29:00.330 really , really important to me . I 29:00.340 --> 29:02.562 love good dinner , I love good wine , I 29:02.562 --> 29:04.850 love going out with my friends , I love 29:04.850 --> 29:06.906 water , I'm a real water baby , so I 29:06.906 --> 29:09.790 love diving and surfing and I find the 29:09.790 --> 29:12.123 ocean to be an incredibly healing place . 29:12.123 --> 29:14.980 So I always try to get as much , much 29:14.980 --> 29:17.202 water time as I can and I'm certainly a 29:17.202 --> 29:20.920 summer baby . So hot weather is my 29:20.920 --> 29:23.590 preferred mode of distressing wherever 29:23.590 --> 29:25.850 possible . Um so I , you know , I just 29:25.850 --> 29:27.980 enjoy those moments with friends and 29:27.980 --> 29:31.600 family and um and I'm very aware 29:31.600 --> 29:35.220 of of just doing things 29:35.220 --> 29:38.640 that are far removed from my world as 29:38.640 --> 29:42.630 well and just 29:42.630 --> 29:44.970 taking time out to appreciate things 29:44.970 --> 29:48.260 and I wish that I could spend half an 29:48.260 --> 29:50.371 hour a day meditating , I have to say 29:50.371 --> 29:52.427 I'm not great at that , but I find , 29:52.427 --> 29:54.427 you know , in my runs and and in my 29:54.427 --> 29:56.649 sort of physical exertion , that's sort 29:56.649 --> 29:56.590 of also a really great form of 29:56.590 --> 29:59.720 meditation for me . So I just try to 29:59.730 --> 30:02.140 try to enjoy the small things in life . 30:02.700 --> 30:05.480 Wonderful . So , my next question is 30:05.480 --> 30:08.380 from a woman's perspective , your 30:08.390 --> 30:10.600 experiences as a female war 30:10.600 --> 30:12.767 correspondent , including working in a 30:12.767 --> 30:15.660 male dominated industry , operating in 30:15.660 --> 30:18.630 a male dominated and dangerous 30:18.640 --> 30:22.340 environments . How have you been able 30:22.340 --> 30:25.870 to succeed in such an environment ? And 30:25.880 --> 30:29.480 how do you find , I would say 30:29.490 --> 30:32.300 work life balance in such a career ? 30:32.920 --> 30:36.900 Yeah , it is , um , it is 30:36.900 --> 30:39.540 a challenge . I think it took me a 30:39.540 --> 30:41.596 little while to find my footing with 30:41.596 --> 30:45.580 that . Um , I think again , if we look 30:45.580 --> 30:47.802 at sort of the history of war reporters 30:47.802 --> 30:49.802 and there's been some incredibly in 30:49.802 --> 30:52.024 trailblazing women don't get me wrong , 30:52.024 --> 30:54.080 but it is predominantly men who have 30:54.080 --> 30:56.247 sort of forged in this profession . So 30:56.247 --> 30:58.191 coming in as a woman automatically 30:58.191 --> 31:00.302 coming in from a completely different 31:00.302 --> 31:02.469 place . And I think that's also really 31:02.469 --> 31:04.136 important to acknowledge what 31:04.136 --> 31:06.080 differences women can bring to the 31:06.080 --> 31:08.260 table so often times and again , I 31:08.260 --> 31:10.427 don't like stereotyping that this is a 31:10.427 --> 31:12.460 generalization , men are more 31:12.460 --> 31:14.682 interested in the what we call the bang 31:14.682 --> 31:16.849 bang and sort of the conflict and they 31:16.849 --> 31:19.380 can tell you , you know what , what 31:19.390 --> 31:21.830 Fighter Jet was used when Emma was used , 31:21.830 --> 31:23.774 where the weapons went . Whereas I 31:23.774 --> 31:25.940 think women generally speaking , we 31:25.940 --> 31:27.884 sort of have less of a tendency to 31:27.884 --> 31:29.884 focus our stories on that and a lot 31:29.884 --> 31:32.730 more centered on that very human story 31:32.740 --> 31:34.962 and telling these incredible stories of 31:34.962 --> 31:37.129 survival of resilience or suffering or 31:37.129 --> 31:39.351 whatever it may be . And I think that's 31:39.351 --> 31:42.710 something really beautiful . Symbian is 31:42.710 --> 31:44.877 that men and women can both be in this 31:44.877 --> 31:46.890 profession and tell the story and 31:46.890 --> 31:49.057 really bring it to life in a different 31:49.057 --> 31:51.168 way . And I think that that creates a 31:51.168 --> 31:53.334 sort of a beautiful harmonious balance 31:53.334 --> 31:55.112 when you are telling incredibly 31:55.112 --> 31:57.112 challenging stories . And so I also 31:57.112 --> 31:59.112 think there's so many advantages to 31:59.112 --> 32:01.168 being a woman , Especially in a very 32:01.168 --> 32:04.260 conservative Muslim countries where you , 32:04.260 --> 32:06.316 you know , a man can't walk into the 32:06.316 --> 32:09.590 tent or with their women and sit and 32:09.600 --> 32:13.590 sit T whereas for me , um I can do that . 32:13.590 --> 32:16.290 I can go and and have suddenly access 32:16.290 --> 32:18.990 to 50% of the population that my male 32:18.990 --> 32:21.280 colleagues don't . Um and women have 32:21.290 --> 32:24.320 incredibly rich and stories and 32:24.330 --> 32:27.070 absolute treasure trove of information . 32:27.080 --> 32:29.680 Um and after sometimes in places like 32:29.680 --> 32:31.791 Iraq and Afghanistan , you're sort of 32:31.791 --> 32:33.900 treated a little bit as the gender 32:33.910 --> 32:36.390 where they don't necessarily expect you 32:36.390 --> 32:38.446 to abide by the laws that they would 32:38.446 --> 32:40.557 expect the local women or the customs 32:40.557 --> 32:42.501 that the local women would have to 32:42.501 --> 32:44.612 abide by . So again , that is a great 32:44.612 --> 32:46.779 advantage because you can sit with the 32:46.779 --> 32:49.050 women at one moment and then you can be 32:49.050 --> 32:51.217 in the next room with the men and sort 32:51.217 --> 32:53.494 of have access to that full population . 32:53.500 --> 32:56.910 So there is a great advantage in that . 32:57.100 --> 32:59.330 The disadvantage is that I've found 32:59.330 --> 33:01.274 which are sort of less now , but I 33:01.274 --> 33:03.274 think in the beginning it certainly 33:03.274 --> 33:05.386 took a lot more convincing when I was 33:05.386 --> 33:07.441 trying to get to the front lines and 33:07.441 --> 33:10.140 you'd be dealing with soldiers and and 33:10.140 --> 33:12.362 you know , there they felt it was their 33:12.362 --> 33:14.362 duty to protect you , not only as a 33:14.362 --> 33:16.362 foreigner , but as a woman . And so 33:16.362 --> 33:18.584 this idea of you going to the and being 33:18.584 --> 33:20.751 exposed to whatever those in the front 33:20.751 --> 33:22.751 line are exposed to , I think , you 33:22.751 --> 33:24.973 know , is jarring . And so I think that 33:24.973 --> 33:27.029 is just one thing that stands out is 33:27.029 --> 33:29.196 you have to fight a little bit more to 33:29.196 --> 33:31.362 kind of get to the crux of the story . 33:31.362 --> 33:34.030 But for the most part , I think things 33:34.030 --> 33:36.390 are changing now and as I said , there 33:36.390 --> 33:38.668 are a lot more women in the profession . 33:38.668 --> 33:40.820 So I think that it's just starting to 33:40.830 --> 33:43.280 become a little bit more acceptable , 33:43.290 --> 33:45.457 that it's a it's a bit more of an even 33:45.457 --> 33:48.180 playing field . Um , and and I think we , 33:48.180 --> 33:50.236 you know , we we all bring different 33:50.236 --> 33:52.291 stories to the table and a different 33:52.291 --> 33:54.640 viewpoint and I think that that enables 33:54.640 --> 33:56.640 to read it to have a much broader 33:56.640 --> 33:59.710 understanding and I think if we bring 33:59.710 --> 34:03.080 both men and women , we bring both of 34:03.090 --> 34:05.750 their perspectives , we could get a 34:05.760 --> 34:07.860 bigger picture I guess right ? 34:07.870 --> 34:11.080 Absolutely , and a better story that 34:11.090 --> 34:14.390 what have you learned about yourself as 34:14.390 --> 34:17.360 a poor reporter , that is one of the 34:17.360 --> 34:21.140 questions I ask so much , 34:21.150 --> 34:24.540 you know , I think for me , the biggest 34:24.540 --> 34:26.762 thing I think I've learned about myself 34:26.762 --> 34:30.180 is or humanity is 34:30.180 --> 34:31.070 how , 34:34.020 --> 34:37.180 how we can basically survive or with 34:37.180 --> 34:40.390 very little in our lives . Um I think 34:40.400 --> 34:42.580 you know , living in the US and for me 34:42.580 --> 34:45.830 having lived in us , I mean los Angeles 34:45.830 --> 34:47.941 new york and now you see you are some 34:47.941 --> 34:49.886 surrounded by cookies , amounts of 34:49.886 --> 34:51.990 wealth and and giant homes and fancy 34:51.990 --> 34:55.200 cars and um this exorbitant sort of 34:55.210 --> 34:57.570 restaurants and all this sort of thing 34:57.570 --> 35:00.120 and I think for me , I always felt very 35:00.120 --> 35:02.720 uncomfortable in those places , again 35:02.720 --> 35:04.720 like on the outside looking in at a 35:04.720 --> 35:06.553 place , you know , if I was ever 35:06.553 --> 35:08.776 invited to a fancy party , it was never 35:08.776 --> 35:10.998 a place that I felt that I belonged and 35:10.998 --> 35:13.440 that when you are very much the flip 35:13.440 --> 35:16.110 side you're in Afghanistan on a dirt 35:16.110 --> 35:19.030 floor with women who've lost everything , 35:19.030 --> 35:21.380 you know , for me that hearing those 35:21.380 --> 35:23.547 experiences and being with them , it's 35:23.547 --> 35:25.713 just it's so much more enriching and I 35:25.713 --> 35:27.824 think it all goes back to the idea of 35:27.824 --> 35:29.936 how little we actually really need in 35:29.936 --> 35:32.047 life to get by . I think so much , so 35:32.047 --> 35:34.158 many of us get caught up , especially 35:34.158 --> 35:36.158 in this instagram day and age where 35:36.158 --> 35:38.491 everything is sort of bling bling fancy , 35:38.491 --> 35:40.491 fancy and at the end of the day , I 35:40.491 --> 35:42.491 think we really lost a lot of those 35:42.491 --> 35:44.602 core values and just what it means to 35:44.602 --> 35:46.602 be human , what it means to connect 35:46.602 --> 35:48.713 with one another , that we don't need 35:48.713 --> 35:50.769 all those things necessary really to 35:50.769 --> 35:54.120 make us happy and the basic tenants of 35:54.120 --> 35:57.740 giving and listening and being able to 35:57.740 --> 36:00.040 receive as well . That's really just 36:00.050 --> 36:02.217 the core fundamentals of life and when 36:02.217 --> 36:04.850 you're in a war zone , all those riches 36:04.850 --> 36:07.072 don't matter what matters , is being in 36:07.072 --> 36:09.072 front of a person and hearing their 36:09.072 --> 36:11.320 stories and walking with them 36:11.330 --> 36:14.810 through some of those tragedies . And 36:14.810 --> 36:16.866 that's really what it's taught me is 36:16.866 --> 36:19.720 the value of , of a much more 36:19.720 --> 36:21.720 minimalist living and also just the 36:21.720 --> 36:23.887 value of family connection and I think 36:23.887 --> 36:26.053 that's something we , we've lost a lot 36:26.053 --> 36:28.790 of in the US and whereas you go to some 36:28.790 --> 36:31.123 of these places and everything is about , 36:31.123 --> 36:33.179 it's having a meal together . It's , 36:33.179 --> 36:35.123 you know , the family will all get 36:35.123 --> 36:37.179 together and be on the floor twice a 36:37.179 --> 36:39.290 day and sharing this meal and sharing 36:39.290 --> 36:41.401 each other's day and just this , this 36:41.401 --> 36:43.512 family connection and I think that is 36:43.512 --> 36:45.920 something that sadly , over time in 36:45.920 --> 36:48.740 Western cultures that we've lost and um 36:48.750 --> 36:50.980 it's certainly something that I just 36:50.990 --> 36:54.170 value so much when I'm abroad , that's 36:54.170 --> 36:57.490 nice . I was researching some of your 36:57.490 --> 37:00.960 work and I came across one interview in 37:00.960 --> 37:03.450 that interview , you praised a Marie 37:03.450 --> 37:06.980 colvin american journalist . 37:07.080 --> 37:09.870 Unfortunately , she's not with us today 37:10.170 --> 37:13.140 when she lost her Ivan , that incident 37:13.140 --> 37:15.540 happened in Sri Lanka . The sri Lankan 37:15.540 --> 37:18.300 government clearly stated that foreign 37:18.300 --> 37:21.410 correspondence could visit the Ltte 37:21.410 --> 37:24.470 controlled land . However , at their 37:24.480 --> 37:28.150 own risk . So my question is 37:28.160 --> 37:31.760 as a journalist , how do you know , how 37:31.760 --> 37:34.820 do you sense when it is safe or 37:34.830 --> 37:38.660 unsafe to push into such situations ? 37:38.670 --> 37:41.350 And it really comes down to it's an 37:41.350 --> 37:43.930 individual preference for how far 37:43.930 --> 37:46.041 you're willing to push the envelope . 37:46.041 --> 37:49.510 Um No one can ever tell you for sure 37:49.510 --> 37:51.600 whether a situation is safe or not , 37:51.610 --> 37:53.666 but I think you do acquire levels of 37:53.666 --> 37:55.800 experience . I think it's incredibly 37:55.800 --> 37:57.744 important to speak to locals . You 37:57.744 --> 37:59.911 should be talking to the taxi driver , 37:59.911 --> 38:01.911 you should be talking to your local 38:01.911 --> 38:04.870 fixer , you should be talking to the 38:04.880 --> 38:06.936 hotel staff if you're at the hotel , 38:06.936 --> 38:08.880 well , whoever it is , talk to the 38:08.880 --> 38:10.713 locals get their sense of what's 38:10.713 --> 38:12.824 happening . Um don't just sort of use 38:12.824 --> 38:14.713 your outside judgment and I think 38:14.713 --> 38:16.936 that's really important . You also have 38:16.936 --> 38:18.991 to weigh up , it's a story worth the 38:18.991 --> 38:21.230 risk . Is it ever worth the risk . Um 38:21.230 --> 38:23.220 and again , nobody can make that 38:23.220 --> 38:25.880 decision for you . But you and I think 38:25.880 --> 38:28.450 for me really my intuition is served me 38:28.460 --> 38:31.260 a lot in my career and I am certainly 38:31.260 --> 38:33.316 one of those people that will assess 38:33.316 --> 38:35.850 the situation and if it feels after me , 38:35.860 --> 38:39.120 I never ignore that instinct . So I you 38:39.120 --> 38:41.287 have to sort of learn to go with those 38:41.287 --> 38:43.342 internal body cues because your body 38:43.342 --> 38:45.453 always knows more than then your mind 38:45.453 --> 38:47.509 does . Um So that's really important 38:47.509 --> 38:49.731 for me and I also think it's incredibly 38:49.731 --> 38:53.640 important to understand that the 38:53.640 --> 38:56.900 people around you . So I would never 38:56.910 --> 38:59.670 take for example a driver if I had a 38:59.670 --> 39:01.892 driver taking me to a certain place and 39:01.892 --> 39:04.003 he was scared or he didn't want to be 39:04.003 --> 39:06.226 there , I would never want him to be in 39:06.226 --> 39:08.448 that situation . And so that would be a 39:08.448 --> 39:10.448 decision for me not to go because I 39:10.448 --> 39:12.614 think it's really important to be very 39:12.614 --> 39:14.614 aware of those around you and their 39:14.614 --> 39:16.726 comfort level as well , even though I 39:16.726 --> 39:18.837 am an independent journalist is still 39:18.837 --> 39:20.948 you know I'm relying on a fixer , I'm 39:20.948 --> 39:23.003 relying on a driver and relying on a 39:23.003 --> 39:25.114 local guide or whoever it may be . So 39:25.114 --> 39:27.281 it's not my life that's just at risk . 39:27.281 --> 39:29.503 It's their lives too . And I think it's 39:29.503 --> 39:28.920 also important not to forget that and 39:28.920 --> 39:31.142 again to you don't want to also be in a 39:31.142 --> 39:34.090 situation where you're going to end up 39:34.090 --> 39:35.868 getting held hostage . And then 39:35.868 --> 39:38.120 suddenly you're then putting at risk , 39:38.130 --> 39:40.780 you know half a dozen U . S . Special 39:40.780 --> 39:43.002 forces soldiers who were then tasked to 39:43.002 --> 39:44.947 coming to find you . And that puts 39:44.947 --> 39:47.002 their lives at risk too . So it is a 39:47.002 --> 39:49.730 real gamble because at the same time we 39:49.730 --> 39:51.841 do want to tell the stories and we do 39:51.841 --> 39:53.786 want to go to the places that most 39:53.786 --> 39:56.008 people will never go to . But it's just 39:56.008 --> 39:59.020 it's a it's a day by day assessment and 39:59.020 --> 40:01.160 I think somebody like Marie was very 40:01.160 --> 40:03.540 aware of the danger that she was going 40:03.540 --> 40:05.960 into and even after her accident in Sri 40:05.960 --> 40:08.127 Lanka as she continued to do the job . 40:08.127 --> 40:10.480 So that sort of um says to me that she 40:10.480 --> 40:12.920 was aware of the risks and and and 40:12.920 --> 40:14.920 there's the risk she was willing to 40:14.920 --> 40:17.087 take and at the end of the day she did 40:17.087 --> 40:19.309 play that ultimate sacrifice for that . 40:19.309 --> 40:21.531 And I think you know , all the power to 40:21.531 --> 40:23.531 her if that's the decision that she 40:23.531 --> 40:25.753 wants to make . But I also I think over 40:25.753 --> 40:29.120 time really and seeing colleagues get 40:29.120 --> 40:32.440 killed in conflicts , My personal view 40:32.440 --> 40:34.496 on it is that a story is never worth 40:34.496 --> 40:37.180 your life . I think if you're dead you 40:37.180 --> 40:39.610 can't come back to tell stories or 40:39.610 --> 40:43.100 future conflicts . I think that 40:43.110 --> 40:46.930 that we have to be able to do the best 40:46.930 --> 40:49.041 of what we can do , you know , within 40:49.041 --> 40:52.500 that sort of severe of being the safest 40:52.510 --> 40:56.500 we possibly can because for example , 40:56.510 --> 41:00.200 um I had a 41:00.200 --> 41:02.422 former colleague of mine who was killed 41:02.422 --> 41:06.240 in Ukraine and for me , I guess I was 41:06.240 --> 41:09.560 devastated by it because you know his 41:09.560 --> 41:11.449 death was not going to change the 41:11.449 --> 41:13.504 situation on the ground in any way , 41:13.504 --> 41:15.671 shape or form . And it also means that 41:15.671 --> 41:18.600 he is now unable to cover conflicts 41:18.600 --> 41:21.280 going forward . And Ukraine is not 41:21.280 --> 41:23.770 going to be the last conflict . There 41:23.770 --> 41:25.714 will be certainly more things that 41:25.714 --> 41:28.980 erupt and I want to be able to do is to 41:28.980 --> 41:31.036 tell those stories of many people as 41:31.036 --> 41:33.091 possible . And I can only do that if 41:33.091 --> 41:37.030 I'm well and healthy . Yes . 41:37.040 --> 41:40.740 Well , you wrote a book about the ISIS 41:40.740 --> 41:44.010 war , Only Cry for the living memos 41:44.010 --> 41:46.140 from inside the ISIS battlefield . 41:47.100 --> 41:49.267 Unfortunately , we don't we don't have 41:49.267 --> 41:51.680 enough time for an in depth dive into 41:51.680 --> 41:54.010 your book today . And I hope one day 41:54.010 --> 41:56.177 we'll be able to do a book review book 41:56.177 --> 41:58.730 discussion with you . However , I would 41:58.730 --> 42:01.620 like you to tell us a little bit about 42:01.620 --> 42:03.564 take a few minutes to give us some 42:03.564 --> 42:06.870 insight into into your book that work . 42:06.880 --> 42:09.980 Yeah , so I spent a lot of time in Iraq 42:09.980 --> 42:12.091 and and mostly Iraq and then a little 42:12.091 --> 42:15.450 bit in Syria between In 2014 and really 42:15.450 --> 42:18.020 the end of 2018 , beginning in 42:18.020 --> 42:21.660 2019 . And I would just sort of go 42:21.670 --> 42:23.837 to as many places as possible . And my 42:23.837 --> 42:26.520 goal really in covering the rise and 42:26.520 --> 42:29.310 the fall of ISIS in those areas was to 42:29.720 --> 42:31.498 to shed light on every possible 42:31.498 --> 42:33.609 perspective . So , the book is really 42:33.609 --> 42:35.776 just a it's a compilation of vignettes 42:35.776 --> 42:37.942 that are told in a chronological order 42:37.942 --> 42:40.190 from beginning to end , but from every 42:40.190 --> 42:41.746 perspective . So you've got 42:41.746 --> 42:45.730 perspectives of the Iraqi soldiers , 42:45.730 --> 42:48.070 the Syrians , the kurdish soldiers , 42:48.080 --> 42:50.630 you've got the Yazidis who are held as 42:50.920 --> 42:53.610 slaves and subject to just huh , boring 42:53.610 --> 42:55.832 torture . You've got the perspective of 42:55.832 --> 42:57.777 the United States , you've got the 42:57.777 --> 42:59.943 perspective of the farmer , you've got 42:59.943 --> 43:02.110 the perspective of the ISIS terrorists 43:02.110 --> 43:04.277 themselves . And so that's really what 43:04.277 --> 43:06.110 I wanted to bring together was a 43:06.110 --> 43:08.221 chronicle of war , but very much from 43:08.221 --> 43:10.277 different humans and very much their 43:10.277 --> 43:12.388 personal stories . And I always think 43:12.388 --> 43:14.630 in taking some of those micro stories 43:14.630 --> 43:16.852 you can paint a much more macro picture 43:16.852 --> 43:18.940 of a conflict . You know , I think 43:18.940 --> 43:20.773 sometimes we look at numbers and 43:20.773 --> 43:23.300 statistics and whilst they are very 43:23.300 --> 43:25.522 important they can tend to overwhelm us 43:25.522 --> 43:27.530 a lot and or distance us from the 43:27.530 --> 43:29.474 narrative and what I want to do is 43:29.474 --> 43:31.840 really bring the reader into the living 43:31.840 --> 43:34.600 room and into the narrative and to just 43:34.600 --> 43:36.730 give people a richer understanding of 43:36.730 --> 43:40.040 what war does to people . Yeah , well , 43:40.050 --> 43:42.340 excellent way of the week capping a 43:42.340 --> 43:44.880 book in such a short timeframe holly 43:44.890 --> 43:47.370 for the audience who are interested in 43:47.370 --> 43:50.030 reading holly's book . It is available 43:50.030 --> 43:52.252 to all the major bookstores , including 43:52.252 --> 43:54.474 amazon books , a million and many other 43:54.474 --> 43:57.530 outlets as well . Thank you very much 43:57.530 --> 43:59.697 for sharing your valuable time with us 43:59.697 --> 44:01.950 today . I would like to say that I'm 44:01.960 --> 44:05.160 amazed by your work in presenting the 44:05.160 --> 44:07.930 otherwise untold stories of people in 44:07.930 --> 44:11.590 war torn nations . On a personal note , 44:11.600 --> 44:14.330 I was born and raised in Sri Lanka in 44:14.330 --> 44:17.600 the middle of civil war and Marxist 44:17.610 --> 44:21.320 insurgency and uh , I like 44:21.330 --> 44:24.110 to take this opportunity . I look at 44:24.110 --> 44:27.020 this opportunity of interviewing you as 44:27.020 --> 44:29.420 a huge positive contribution towards 44:29.420 --> 44:32.810 helping others understanding the plight 44:32.810 --> 44:36.030 of folks caught in such situations 44:36.040 --> 44:38.200 and hopefully 44:40.250 --> 44:43.230 influence decision makers to make wise 44:43.240 --> 44:46.770 decisions that might that might 44:46.780 --> 44:50.470 elevate such misery in the future again . 44:50.470 --> 44:52.810 Thank you holly . And on behalf of the 44:52.810 --> 44:55.320 journal in the past week of years , we 44:55.320 --> 44:57.740 wish you the very best in all your 44:57.740 --> 45:01.480 future endeavors . Thank you . Thank 45:01.480 --> 45:03.320 you . Thank you very much .